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Atheism and Secularism are the future

FunctionalAtheist

Hammer of Reason
Islam's is at the moment because they have lots of kids and everyone else isn't.



Atheism in the West is basically a reaction to the more immature forms of religiosity that tend to inform most people's perceptions of religion. There's a lot of ignorance about religion in the West and a big focus on materialism in both the philosophical sense and the consumerist sense.

Are you having lots of kids who will hold to atheism? No. Europe's below replacement levels and immigrants are the ones having most of the kids in both Europe and in America. These people who are having lots of kids aren't atheists. A vacuum will always be filled.

Funny how people with low to moderate eductaion and wealth move to the US with their faith, and after 2 or 3 generations their children are educated, prosperous, and more than cynical when it comes to their granparents old world superstitions.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Islam's is at the moment because they have lots of kids and everyone else isn't.



Atheism in the West is basically a reaction to the more immature forms of religiosity that tend to inform most people's perceptions of religion. There's a lot of ignorance about religion in the West and a big focus on materialism in both the philosophical sense and the consumerist sense.

Are you having lots of kids who will hold to atheism? No. Europe's below replacement levels and immigrants are the ones having most of the kids in both Europe and in America. These people who are having lots of kids aren't atheists. A vacuum will always be filled.

I am not sure that this is a sequitur. You could be right, but I don't think it follows logically from the premises.

There was a time when virtually everybody was a theist, and having lots of kids, Europe included. So, where does all this atheism come from? From people without parents?

Ciao

- viole
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I am not sure that this is a sequitur. You could be right, but I don't think it follows logically from the premises.

There was a time when virtually everybody was a theist, and having lots of kids, Europe included. So, where does all this atheism come from? From people without parents?

Ciao

- viole
From what I have gathered, Europe is becoming much more secular than the "west". I don't think people realize how religious "Merica" is.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Both fit my argument well. Heliocentrism and the flat earth are the ancient beliefs that the church attempted to preserve and failed.

Dude, the "Columbus argued the Earth is round to a flat-insisting Church" thing is based on a fictional account from Washington Irving, which I regard as more-or-less anti-religious propaganda. (And a perfect example of the importance of artistic responsibility, but that's a discussion for another thread). It's even got its own name: the Flat Earth Myth.

Nobody thought the Earth was flat 500 years ago, except maybe farmers, who often never left their villages their whole lives, so it didn't matter to them. What Columbus was arguing about was not the shape of the Earth with the Church, but trade-route viability with the Spanish Crown. He was arguing that the Ocean was smaller than it is, and that Eurasia was bigger than it is. (And many other details that are incorrect). Such that a trans-Atlantic trip from Spain to India would take roughly 7 weeks. That would give Spain a major trade advantage over their enemies (France and Britain). The only alternatives were to go around Africa, which took forever; or over land, which was incredibly difficult and dangerous, and went right through the heart of the Muslim world, which Iberia (...Iberia = modern-day Spain+Portugal) had just broken off from.

Yes, many ancient and not-so-ancient cultures believed in a Flat Earth, including the early Hebrews. Edda songs(that is, Norse Mythology) also describes a flat Earth, and those lays were written about 1000 years ago, give or take a century for an individual lay. But Aristotle proved that the Earth was round 2600 years ago, and the Catholic Church held the guy in extremely high regard, if his position in Dante's Inferno is any indication. He was regarded as the height of human intellectual capability. They knew well his calculations, and those of Eratosthenes.

By the way, minor correction: the Inquisition was insisting on a Geo-centric universe, not heliocentric. But more evidence that the Church was more than aware and open to the round Earth, and that a round Earth is, in fact, necessary to the closely held Ptolemic model, is once again found in Dante's work. He goes through Hell, which is described as a massive crater at the top of the world, and then going through Hell, pops out the "other side of the planet" to find the mountain of Purgatory. So unless they believed the Earth to be banana shaped, they've known the Earth is round this whole time. Dante lived about 500 years before Columbus: about as far in time from the overrated but incredibly skilled explorer as we are.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
By the way, minor correction: the Inquisition was insisting on a Geo-centric universe, not heliocentric. But more evidence that the Church was more than aware and open to the round Earth, and that a round Earth is, in fact, necessary to the closely held Ptolemic model, is once again found in Dante's work. He goes through Hell, which is described as a massive crater at the top of the world, and then going through Hell, pops out the "other side of the planet" to find the mountain of Purgatory. So unless they believed the Earth to be banana shaped, they've known the Earth is round this whole time. Dante lived about 500 years before Columbus: about as far in time from the overrated but incredibly skilled explorer as we are.

well...the most laughable thing is that there are still people on this planet that believe in geocentrism. There are a couple of videos on youtube in which some "scientist" desperately tries to demonstrate that heliocentrism is wrong.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
well...the most laughable thing is that there are still people on this planet that believe in geocentrism. There are a couple of videos on youtube in which some "scientist" desperately tries to demonstrate that heliocentrism is wrong.

LOL That's hilarious. ^_^

But even more laughable, or at least it would be laughable if it weren't so sad, is that there is actually something that exists called the Flat Earth Movement. People who actually believe that the Earth is flat. :facepalm:
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
LOL That's hilarious. ^_^

But even more laughable, or at least it would be laughable if it weren't so sad, is that there is actually something that exists called the Flat Earth Movement. People who actually believe that the Earth is flat. :facepalm:

I didn't know that. I'm speechless. It would be incredibly cruel to laugh at those people, toward whom nature has already been cruel enough giving them a brain like that.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Funny how people with low to moderate eductaion and wealth move to the US with their faith, and after 2 or 3 generations their children are educated, prosperous, and more than cynical when it comes to their granparents old world superstitions.
Studies show that religiosity varies inversely with education.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I didn't know that. I'm speechless. It would be incredibly cruel to laugh at those people, toward whom nature has already been cruel enough giving them a brain like that.

One actually popped up on these forums once. Made my brain hurt.

I actually suspect a very common psychological trap is involved with that movement: a strong rebellious urge: everyone thinks the Earth is round, so let's be nonconformist and believe the Earth to be flat, just to be different.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Studies show that religiosity varies inversely with education.

At least as far as affiliation goes.

But to invoke the very rebellious urge I just criticized, I've seen plenty of what I'd describe as religious behavior among those who claim no religion, or even spirituality.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
That's the key: "WHAT I'D DESCRIBE."

Thing is, it's also the same stuff described by anthropologists when determining the religiosity of ancient humans, sapiens or otherwise. (...are other species of homo considered human? I don't actually know).
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
We've always had, and will always have, both magically-minded and skeptically-minded people. Also, religion is largely a structure of social acceptance and compliance, and most people will always have a strong drive for these things.

The degree to which community plays a role in some religions is often enough grossly overlooked by those of us who focus on the absurdities in the theologies. Most of the Christians I know don't know much about the theology of their religion, but are highly attracted to the opportunities their churches provide for fellowship, friends, and community.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The degree to which community plays a role in some religions is often enough grossly overlooked by those of us who focus on the absurdities in the theologies. Most of the Christians I know don't know much about the theology of their religion, but are highly attracted to the opportunities their churches provide for fellowship, friends, and community.

Not a particularly questionable set of priorities, if you ask me. I still wish they were a bit more honest about that, though. It would be so beneficial.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
There are a number of anthropologists whom I've read who seem to equate a few flowers in a burial with having been a neolithic bible thumper.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
The degree to which community plays a role in some religions is often enough grossly overlooked by those of us who focus on the absurdities in the theologies. Most of the Christians I know don't know much about the theology of their religion, but are highly attracted to the opportunities their churches provide for fellowship, friends, and community.

Which is also why there's plenty of "Atheist Churches" around, or at least places where atheists can exist in their own communities, online or otherwise.

Humans are a social species, with social interaction and acceptance being as strong an urge as eating/drinking/sex...ing (?) (except for those with anti-social disorders). Even me, with Asperger's Syndrom AND being 100% introverted, will go pretty crazy and get very depressed if I go for more than a day or two without any in-person social interaction.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Friends Society Meetings are always a good time (except the silent group I attended ... once!)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
There are a number of anthropologists whom I've read who seem to equate a few flowers in a burial with having been a neolithic bible thumper.

Flowers aren't the key. It's the systematic direction of the burials, which might indicate the a belief in an afterlife by Neanderthals, which is pretty much the one constant of all religions I've seen: the concept of surviving death. Even atheistic/agnostic religions have such a concept.

You'd be hard-pressed to tell me, also, that the Red Lady of Paviland was not ritually buried. (Though that wasn't Neanderthals; that was fully behaviorally modern sapiens).

However, "Bible-thumping" (or whatever non-Christian equivalent) is not exactly the norm when it comes to religious behavior. Or do you believe all religiosity equals "Bible-thumping"?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Flowers aren't the key. It's the systematic direction of the burials, which might indicate the a belief in an afterlife by Neanderthals, which is pretty much the one constant of all religions I've seen: the concept of surviving death. Even atheistic/agnostic religions have such a concept.

We do? I need to have a serious talk with my teachers one of these days to ask them to leave be then.
 
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