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Atheism ... Heh

YaphaSheba

New Member

  1. "According to the standard Big Bang model, the universe was born during a period of inflation that began about 13.7 billion years ago. Like a rapidly expanding balloon, it swelled from a size smaller than an electron to nearly its current size within a tiny fraction of a second."

    So, suddenly everything was there. Almost as if commanded to form.
    Does that not sound like Genesis 1:3 "And God said let there be light, and there was light." ?

    Someone once said,"such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."
    Makes sense to me. Because the universe needed to be made, it made itself. Because I needed myself to be made, I made myself.

    Does this make sense in your eyes? That nobody made the universe on a simple command in a tiny fraction of a second, instead it 'made itself in a fraction of a second because it felt the need to' ?


    On to evolution.

    If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only? Where are all of the apes in between?
    In order for this to make sense, we had to have both been made at the same time and made two different animals:

    Genesis 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”


    Mmm, evolution.
    If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them? Are they smarter than us? We can't evolve ourselves. How come they can? Does nothingness use its nothingness and change animals because nothing told nothingness that it needed to?

    That makes no sense. Wouldn't it make sense for a God to be watching and fixing his creations according to their environment ?

    In Genesis 9:1-2 God is recorded changing the animals according to what has happened.

    "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."

    If that can happen, history can repeat itself. Just as He created the universe, He can create more things.
    Your thoughts?
 

Senseless

Bonnie & Clyde
On to evolution.

If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only? Where are all of the apes in between?

Uh, no. The apes you see today and our species evolved from a common ancestor. They are not the 'beginning stage', nor are we the 'end stage'.
And the apes in between are everywhere. In the ground. There is a whole buttload of them.

If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them? Are they smarter than us? We can't evolve ourselves. How come they can? Does nothingness use its nothingness and change animals because nothing told nothingness that it needed to?

They don't 'know'. Evolution is not a conscious process.

Look. You have lizards. They live in a sandy area. The lizards are green. Sometimes, some lizards are a lighter shade of green. Sometimes, a yellow lizard is born.
Which lizards are most likely to survive, as in: not be eaten by a predator, and thus continue to live and multiply?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts are that you should research evolution more thoroughly, and stop conflating it, along with the big bang, with atheism. They have nothing to do with each other.

Welcome, by the way.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

  1. "According to the standard Big Bang model, the universe was born during a period of inflation that began about 13.7 billion years ago. Like a rapidly expanding balloon, it swelled from a size smaller than an electron to nearly its current size within a tiny fraction of a second."

    So, suddenly everything was there. Almost as if commanded to form.
    Does that not sound like Genesis 1:3 "And God said let there be light, and there was light." ?

    Someone once said,"such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."
    Makes sense to me. Because the universe needed to be made, it made itself. Because I needed myself to be made, I made myself.

    Does this make sense in your eyes? That nobody made the universe on a simple command in a tiny fraction of a second, instead it 'made itself in a fraction of a second because it felt the need to' ?


    On to evolution.

    If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only? Where are all of the apes in between?
    In order for this to make sense, we had to have both been made at the same time and made two different animals:

    Genesis 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”


    Mmm, evolution.
    If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them? Are they smarter than us? We can't evolve ourselves. How come they can? Does nothingness use its nothingness and change animals because nothing told nothingness that it needed to?

    That makes no sense. Wouldn't it make sense for a God to be watching and fixing his creations according to their environment ?

    In Genesis 9:1-2 God is recorded changing the animals according to what has happened.

    "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."

    If that can happen, history can repeat itself. Just as He created the universe, He can create more things.
    Your thoughts?
So many topics!
Which one would you like to address first?
(Some are quite involved.)

A useful reference to address basic questions about evolution......
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
Of course, there are many other good ones to be found on the web.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
  1. Mmm, evolution.
    If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them? Are they smarter than us? We can't evolve ourselves. How come they can? Does nothingness use its nothingness and change animals because nothing told nothingness that it needed to?
"How is water smart enough to fill its hole exactly?"
 

YaphaSheba

New Member
That isn't much of a comparison here.

People have said elephants evolved into tuskless elephants because of poachers, and will soon regain them when they are gone. How do they know that they need to be tuskless?
 

YaphaSheba

New Member
Uh, no. The apes you see today and our species evolved from a common ancestor. They are not the 'beginning stage', nor are we the 'end stage'.
And the apes in between are everywhere. In the ground. There is a whole buttload of them.



They don't 'know'. Evolution is not a conscious process.

Look. You have lizards. They live in a sandy area. The lizards are green. Sometimes, some lizards are a lighter shade of green. Sometimes, a yellow lizard is born.
Which lizards are most likely to survive, as in: not be eaten by a predator, and thus continue to live and multiply?



My thoughts are that you should research evolution more thoroughly, and stop conflating it, along with the big bang, with atheism. They have nothing to do with each other.

Welcome, by the way.
So , on the apes, evolution is over? Science can't ever repeat itself?
 

Senseless

Bonnie & Clyde
So , on the apes, evolution is over? Science can't ever repeat itself?

How did you come from that conclusion from what I wrote?

Evolution is still happening. It's still going. It doesn't have an 'end'. It won't be over until all life is dead.

Why did you equate science with evolution?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That isn't much of a comparison here.

People have said elephants evolved into tuskless elephants because of poachers, and will soon regain them when they are gone. How do they know that they need to be tuskless?

If I am not mistaken this is now an out-dated idea, i.e. Lemarkian theory of inheritence of aquired traits, or not inheriting tusks because of environmental changes/poachers). it was however one that was widely accepted in the 19th century (including I think by Darwin himself) but recent research in genetics mean this is now no longer scientifically credible.

you're welcome to prove me wrong though as I'm not 100% sure.

Does this make sense in your eyes? That nobody made the universe on a simple command in a tiny fraction of a second, instead it 'made itself in a fraction of a second because it felt the need to' ?

The Big Bang does bother me because "something out of nothing" is not consistent with an atheist-materialist philosophy. The fact that a theological interpretation of the Big Bang is possible was pointed out by the Catholic Church in the 1951 and was a long running objection to the theory because it undermined materialist and naturalistic understanding of science. it made alot of scientists uncomfortable. A "steady-state universe" fits better with a consistently materialist-atheist understanding of the origins of the universe (in that it assumes it didn't have one). However, the steady state theory doesn't correspond to evidence found in the 1960s of Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation.

I am not a scientist and therefore not qualified to really challange the consensus on it so I could only challange it on "common sense" grounds of logic which often is a very poor judge for the validity of scientific theories. From my understanding, you'd have to challange the theory of relativity and how it describes the properties of time and space in order to discredit the big bang, or else come up with another interpretation of the evidence with better explanatory power than the Big Bang Model.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
According to the standard Big Bang model, the universe was born during a period of inflation that began about 13.7 billion years ago. Like a rapidly expanding balloon, it swelled from a size smaller than an electron to nearly its current size within a tiny fraction of a second."

before debating a topic, it is important you know what you are debating

It did not go to nearly its current size :rolleyes:

It has been expanding faster since its origin




Does that not sound like

Not at all. Requires imaigination

If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only?

Do you not know grade school biology?

Where are all of the apes in between?

There are many bud. Do you know what homo erectus is?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Does this make sense in your eyes? That nobody made the universe on a simple command in a tiny fraction of a second, instead it 'made itself in a fraction of a second because it felt the need to' ?
Felt the need? No. That doesn't make sense to me that the universe would feel the need to go "bang". I'm not sure rocks rolling down the hill "feels the need to roll". Do the letters in this post "feel the need" to display themselves on the screen? Why would nature need to feel something to do something?


If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only? Where are all of the apes in between?
You mean the over 2,000 fossils of Australopithecus and Homo? Yeah, where are they? In museums and safe locations. Some of them at schools, where you can take classes in how to study and read them (I did, did you?).

In order for this to make sense, we had to have both been made at the same time and made two different animals:
That doesn't explain anything of all the things we do know about the history of Earth and the biosphere. It doesn't make sense to you because you haven't looked into what evidence we have. Simple as that.

Mmm, evolution.
If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them?
Hmmm... No. That's not how evolution works. Evolution doesn't make sense to you because you have a wrong knowledge about it.

If that can happen, history can repeat itself. Just as He created the universe, He can create more things.
Your thoughts?
We do see Nature (my God) create new things all the time. Constantly. So yes, Nature/Universe does create more things.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
So , on the apes, evolution is over? Science can't ever repeat itself?
No. Evolution isn't over. We know about positive mutations in recent times, in humans and many animals. I don't know if anyone has done any genetic research on apes, but it wouldn't surprise me that they are still evolving.

What do you mean with science can't repeat itself? When it comes to evolution, it isn't about repeating the same genetic traits in some deterministic way. It's adaptions to the environment, and the environment is changing, not static.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
That isn't much of a comparison here.

People have said elephants evolved into tuskless elephants because of poachers, and will soon regain them when they are gone. How do they know that they need to be tuskless?
They're not tuskless. They have smaller tusks.

Because those elephants with genetic mutations that produce smaller tusks as left to live and reproduce, while the elephants with the genes for large tusks have been killed and have no more offspring.
 

Shad

Veteran Member

  1. "According to the standard Big Bang model, the universe was born during a period of inflation that began about 13.7 billion years ago. Like a rapidly expanding balloon, it swelled from a size smaller than an electron to nearly its current size within a tiny fraction of a second."

    So, suddenly everything was there. Almost as if commanded to form.
    Does that not sound like Genesis 1:3 "And God said let there be light, and there was light." ?

    Someone once said,"such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing."
    Makes sense to me. Because the universe needed to be made, it made itself. Because I needed myself to be made, I made myself.

    Does this make sense in your eyes? That nobody made the universe on a simple command in a tiny fraction of a second, instead it 'made itself in a fraction of a second because it felt the need to' ?


    On to evolution.

    If we evolved from apes, why are there the beginning and end stages only? Where are all of the apes in between?
    In order for this to make sense, we had to have both been made at the same time and made two different animals:

    Genesis 1:21 “And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.”


    Mmm, evolution.
    If creatures evolved according to their surroundings, then how do they know how to evolve according to them? Are they smarter than us? We can't evolve ourselves. How come they can? Does nothingness use its nothingness and change animals because nothing told nothingness that it needed to?

    That makes no sense. Wouldn't it make sense for a God to be watching and fixing his creations according to their environment ?

    In Genesis 9:1-2 God is recorded changing the animals according to what has happened.

    "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered."

    If that can happen, history can repeat itself. Just as He created the universe, He can create more things.
    Your thoughts?

1. You are making the assumption based on the "Almost as if commanded to form." By your words you are speculating, nothing more. You are assuming the pre-big bang form produces no "light". Light is the viable spectrum thus you can not discount the non-visable spectrum thus you produces an argument based on omission. You are asserting the universe had to be made thus begging the question while using an unspoken special pleading in that God does not need to be made, a claim based on assertion and dogma, nothing more.

2. There is no end stage, you are assuming that humans will never change from this point on as if we are the end stage of anything. There are numerous apes between us. You are using the flawed assumption that current apes are our direct ancestors, they are not. You conclusion is based on your own ignorance of evolution.

3. You are assuming animals have direct conscious influence of their own evolution, this is false. Animals do not just decide to change as a conscious choice. Lets see you validate your nonsensical claims. I want to see you decide to to be immune to a non-lethal poisons in which you repeatedly adapt to become immune to whatever poison you consume. You conclusion is based upon you own ignorance of the topic you are attempting to discuss.

4. Thought? You have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
They're not tuskless. They have smaller tusks.

Because those elephants with genetic mutations that produce smaller tusks as left to live and reproduce, while the elephants with the genes for large tusks have been killed and have no more offspring.
True, true:

Chris of the SCRIBOL STAFF said:
It appears that in at least one case, however, evolution is occurring at what seems like jet speed. In the last 150 years, the world’s elephant population has evolved much smaller tusks.

The average size of an African elephant’s tusks has gone down by half in the last century and a half. Indian elephants have undergone a similar tusk size reduction.

Experts believe the rapid evolution of the massive land mammals is due to poaching. Zoologists from Oxford University suggest that ivory poachers, who go for the largest males with the largest tusks, have caused the breeding behaviors of the animals to change rapidly in a short time.

The largest male African elephants have the largest tusks. These tusks are extremely important in elephant behavior, with the largest tusks usually resulting in more successful intimidation of smaller males or winning fights for female elephants. But when the largest animals are killed, it changes the breeding patterns of the animals. In short, without the largest males for competition, the smaller males with their smaller tusks will breed more successfully, and their offspring will have smaller tusks.

Study co-author Iain Douglas Hamilton of Save the Elephants said in the Telegraph: “What appears to be the case is that average tusk sizes have decreased greatly since the mid-19th century. The data comes from the trade statistics and from records of hunters around Africa who find that large trophies are very much harder to find. While some of this may be due to an absence of older animals, it is possible there has been a genetic selection pressure against large tusk size that outweighs their usefulness in contests with other males in winning females.”
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
True, true:
I was pondering a little on evolution and how mutations/selection works, and I realized that the elephant species (as a whole) is lucky that the small-tusk genes existed in the gene pool. While when it comes to the other thousands of species that have gone extinct in the past decade or so were not lucky (as a group/species). There were no beneficial mutations in those cases. We can see that it's only in a few cases of species where mutations can help them survive, hence 99.999+% of all species ever existed are gone. Also, it shows that evolution fails more than it succeeds, but where it succeeds it seems like a miracle how it could "know" the right mutation. It's a survivor's bias. "I won. I survived. Therefore it was meant to be. God did it." Without regards to the million others who didn't survive.
 
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