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Atheism, or theism, which is by-default among human beings ?

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.


Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph
I read the news story, but there was nothing of substance in it other than the stated opinion of this one academic. He talks about the existence of studies to support his opinion, but he doesn't actually name them or go into many details in that article. One can, of course, cite academics arguing both sides of the issue, so we really need to know more about the specific kind of evidence that backs up his claim. For example, anthropologist Stewart Guthrie in Faces in the Clouds argues that we are hardwired to see ourselves in everything and that this is the reason for the ubiquitous belief in the existence of deities with human-like attributes. He cites lots of corroborating evidence for his hypothesis, but it is hard to find anything in it that would allow one to test the hypothesis. My own speculation is that deities represent idealized parental or adult authority, and belief in a deity helps one transition from childhood to adulthood without losing that comforting sense of guidance from an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful authority. However, I haven't a clue as to how to turn this speculation into a falsifiable hypothesis. AFAICT, there is no reason to believe that theism is anything more than a consequence of other human traits, many of which may be heritable.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.
Teleology makes more philosophical sense than that there is no purpose. The latter is something to "wrap our minds around."

For instance, we might give a teleological account of why forks have prongs by showing their purpose—how the design helps humans to eat certain foods. Stabbing food and helping humans eat is what forks are for. (Wikipedia)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I read the news story, but there was nothing of substance in it other than the stated opinion of this one academic. He talks about the existence of studies to support his opinion, but he doesn't actually name them or go into many details in that article.
Some FYI notes:
Barrett has written a popular science book on this topic:
Barrett, J. L. (2012). Born believers: The science of children's religious belief. Simon and Schuster. I've read a number his papers (I believe some may be linked to in this thread, but if not I know I've linked to some recently on this topic. For any interested, I've uploaded a review of the literature/field by Barrett that (while not really that current) at least addresses more than in the article. I have to say this new "upload a file" feature may save me hours and hours of searching.

One can, of course, cite academics arguing both sides of the issue
Pardon the annoying question, but which issue? That is, obviously Barrett's opinion isn't that of all scientists everywhere. However, I'm not sure I quite understand what the two sides you refer to are. Simply whether we are inclined towards belief in god, a more specific hypothesis, a more general one, or am I way off here? Thanks.


For example, anthropologist Stewart Guthrie in Faces in the Clouds argues that we are hardwired to see ourselves in everything and that this is the reason for the ubiquitous belief in the existence of deities with human-like attributes.
I hesitate to do this but just in case it is worthwhile for anybody Barrett has looked into this very question in e.g.,
Knight, N., Sousa, P., Barrett, J. L., & Atran, S. (2004). Children’s attributions of beliefs to humans and God: Cross-cultural evidence. Cognitive Science, 28(1), 117-126.

and earlier

Barrett, J. L., & Richert, R. A. (2003). Anthropomorphism or preparedness? Exploring children's God concepts. Review of Religious Research, 300-312.

I present the above & attached not to argue any point but merely to expand upon the article on Barrett for any interested in his own work and/or what evidence he believes exists beyond that contained in the article.
 

Attachments

  • Cognitive Science of Religion- Looking Back, Looking Forward.pdf
    229.1 KB · Views: 25

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
The above is wrong.
As a neuroscientists do you deny that we have parts of our brain that have developed in ways that favor language? And that it is possible (probable and evolutionary necessary) that our language skills have shaped the development of our brain over the course of the last million years?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As a neuroscientists do you deny that we have parts of our brain that have developed in ways that favor language?
No. I believe we have.

And that it is possible (probable and evolutionary necessary) that our language skills have shaped the development of our brain over the course of the last million years?
Possible, yes. Directionality gets a bit dicey, though (chicken vs. egg and all).
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Decades ego, Chomsky posited that language was innate based largely on nothing. He later adopted the "poverty of stimulus" argument to support his view that language is somehow "hard-wired" in the brain. Especially since the 80s, this view has been challenged at every level, creating a wide-ranging field or research that goes under the nomenclature "embodied cognition". More interestingly, everyone would disagree with the above. The "language module" (the newer term for Chomsky's "language faculty") isn't considered by anybody to actually exist physically as some portion of the brain like the PFC or substantia nigra.


Agreed to some point. The first point is that we do use highly complex portions of or brain to learn language. Portions of our brain that many other species do not have. It isn't as simple section of our brain that we can isolate and put on a diagram that is "the language center" but rather several portions of our brain that work with pattern recognition, abstract thought and the like. As an individual in neuroscience you should be well aware that forms of communication is a dire need with all animals that live in social groups. This is an evolutionary advantage that comes along with the evolution of our brains.

We didn't.
This is incredibly wrong unless you are arguing against something I am not proposing. Language and communication was a key part of the evolution of our brains. **** poor communication as we advanced would have meant death. Picking up cues ect. However if you are arguing that we did not develop an innate language in our brain then yes that would be folly. It would also be folly to say that we evolve to meet any particular end.

But language has shaped and been shaped by our evolution.

This has happened often enough that there is a term for such a child (feral children). Scientists who study cognition (including language) have developed far more sophisticated theories about the inability for children to ever learn to speak once they have passed a "fuzzy" age threshold.
You are correct on this matter. I have educated myself somewhat on the subject and have evolved my own position. It does bring into question the innate "ability to learn language" in the "fuzzy" threshold. The existence of this "fuzzy" threshold indicates that we have an innate ability to learn language and communicate. This still works towards my claim however I was very wrong about feral child syndrome.
Wrong, but not I a simplistic way. There is evidence that loss of certain perceptual/sensory portions of the brain result in specific language deficits, as well as high level parts of the brain that also result in specific deficits and the way in which damage in any area can be compensated for (with restrictions).
Which rounds back to a point I made at the beginning of the post. I had never intended to state that there was a "single portion of our brain that deals with language" but that we have portions of our brain that deals specifically with our language skills. Major losses in most of those areas would debilitate our ability to speak. This is one reason why when people have strokes or other injuries to the brain they may still have the cognitive ability to think and have complex thoughts but be rendered incapable of translating that into language. I know such an individual. Brilliant man but can't string words together to prove it in many cases.
It is more ingrained in us than language by all relevant research in evolutionary sciences, as (apart from everything else) the differences between languages is vast compared to the differences between religious beliefs.
I don't think so and would like to see the specific evidence in which you would base this. The begingins of language and communication is found in almost every mammal and several non-mammal animals. This would indicate, to me at least, that it has been part of our brain for a long long time. However religious belief which may have come about from false agent detection. Or it could have been from responses to the higher level of understanding of one's own mortality as we developed more complex minds able to develop concepts. Either way, both of those would be far newer developments than simply communication. At least on the levels that we have.

We also have near 100% of people speaking some language or another. This is pure conjecture but I don't believe there was ever a time in all our history that 100% of people believed in god. If there was I would imagine that it was during the bottleneck period.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To be clear my wording was not an attempt to indicate that we had a "direction" or "destination" for our evolution.
I didn't think you implied that. I meant directionality in terms of causation. That is, whether our brain has shaped our language skills vs. that "language skills have shaped the development of our brain"
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Apparently, what we're born with is a sort of rudimentary animism... not concrete enough to be called theism; therefore a sort of atheism.

However, it's certainly not the sort of skeptical, freethinking, secuarist view that often goes along with atheism among adult atheists who have thought about the issue and taken a position.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I didn't think you implied that. I meant directional in terms of causation. That is, whether our brain has shaped our language skills vs. that "language skills have shaped the development of our brain"
Usually in evolution it is whatever survives to the next generation and whatever genes end up being useful at any given point in time. Though in several cases specific advantages can be honed over time if in almost all cases having the advancement or having a more advanced form of it would be universally "good" for its survival. I believe that language and other communicative skills would fall under this category. Those with more or better communication skills would usually survive better than those who do not in an almost universal way. Obviously other factors would be in play but I can't think of a single instance where having better communication would be worse than not.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Human being turns from theists -to- atheist, or atheist -to- theists ? Which thing is by-default among human beings ? Atheism, or Theism.


I guess you would have to decide whether babies are born believing in a god, and if so, then why would they all believe in different ones??? Makes no sense to me. You are an atheist, or at least an agnostic untill someone drills one religion or another into you.
 
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