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Atheism, part 3: Definitions

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I was reading through PureX's latest post in my thread "Atheism, part 1", in which he drawed out what the word "atheist" means to him, and how it means a bit more than the Dictionary definition.

In my thread "Atheism, part 2", Nimos posted a video or two on Critical Thinking, and in one of the videos, it said it was okay to, when evaluating a claim, agree with some parts of it, without necessarily having to agree with the whole entire claim.

What I did manage to agree with about PureX's posts in the thread "Atheism, part 1", though, is that sometimes, there is a bit more to a definition than the Dictionary definition. Why this happens, in my own words, is due to the evolution of language, and how I feel that a lot of Dictionary definitions are a bit rigid, and feel like they're still stuck in the 80's. Even in cases where they still can be fairly helpful in general.

So implementing the idea that "You can agree with some parts of a claim without agreeing with the whole entire claim" of Nimos' video in "Atheism, part 2", I may agree that the definition of Atheist in the Dictionary may be a little lacking, personally, and may need further clarification, I just didn't necessarily agree with the parts of the statements expressed after that.

In addition, one type of conversation which I find a bit difficult to read, goes like this...

Person A: "Atheists believe that..."

Person B: "Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and that's it."

The problem with this style of conversation, in my opinion, is if Person A had a valid point about something most people who are atheists do, Person B may not ever address their point. They're just trying to define what "atheism" might be and in a rigid way, when there might be similarities and difference and additional nuances when talking a particular group of atheists.

But there are contexts where it is useful to say such a thing too, and here's an example:

Person A: "Atheism is a religion, too."

Person B: "Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and that's it."

Which may, in my opinion correctly, imply that atheism isn't a religion. In this context, the person is confronting a direct statement, with a direct refutation, and isn't running the risk of creating a straw man.

@PureX
@Nimos
 
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Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I usually only see atheists bring up that atheism is "the lack of a belief in God" when replying to someone who is trying to conflate atheism with related concepts like strong atheism or metaphysical naturalism, usually in an attempt to shift the burden of proof by making a strawman out of the atheist. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist use that definition to strawman a theist, but I can see how that could plausibly happen.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
There is a term that describes someone who rejects all supernatural claims. Ironically enough, I reject the supernatural but very much so believe in God in the natural world. I wish I knew what the term was that meant someone rejects all supernatural concepts and ideas... :oops: I'm looking it up on Google and only find results for atheism or agnosticism. But I remember someone defining it for me in the past and myself finding the concept of the word on Google. I just can't find that word again! :mad:
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
There is a term that describes someone who rejects all supernatural claims. Ironically enough, I reject the supernatural but very much so believe in God in the natural world. I wish I knew what the term was that meant someone rejects all supernatural concepts and ideas... :oops: I'm looking it up on Google and only find results for atheism or agnosticism. But I remember someone defining it for me in the past and myself finding the concept of the word on Google. I just can't find that word again! :mad:

Metaphysical naturalism.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I usually only see atheists bring up that atheism is "the lack of a belief in God" when replying to someone who is trying to conflate atheism with related concepts like strong atheism or metaphysical naturalism, usually in an attempt to shift the burden of proof by making a strawman out of the atheist. I don't think I've ever seen an atheist use that definition to strawman a theist, but I can see how that could plausibly happen.

Interesting. I see.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
Metaphysical naturalism.

That's a term you can describe that, but this word, a single word, described a lack of any supernatural beliefs and started with an a, just like atheist or agnostic. When I looked it up, Google defined it and it wasn't just some made up word. From what I remember there was a guy who was trying to start a religion or something based on the premise that there is nothing above nature, and defined it with a word that has been lost to me since he showed me the word. But I know it's a real word, Google defined it when I looked it up, it was one word and not a term, and it started with an a. Can you help me figure it out what it was again?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Metaphysical naturalism

I like that as a positive statement rather than the typical negative atheist assertion. Are there any atheists who are not metaphysical naturalists? And if so, what does that look like?
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Person A: "Atheists believe that..."

Person B: "Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and that's it."

The problem with this style of conversation, in my opinion, is if Person A had a valid point about something most people who are atheists do, Person B may not ever address their point. They're just trying to define what "atheism" might be and in a rigid way, when there might be similarities and difference and additional nuisances when talking a particular group of atheists.
I think this comes down to being precise and it goes both ways. Atheists might as well say:

A: Religious people believe that God is...

This might not apply to a Christian or a Muslim or whoever you speak to, so it quickly becomes "Person A" putting words in the mouth of "Person B", if "Person B" doesn't instantly say, "Muslim doesn't believe this about God..."

So people, when saying/claiming these general things about others have to be very careful, so personally I prefer, a person to quickly define what they mean or correct me, before spending time creating an argument which might be false straight off the bat.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
I had a part 4 planned for tomorrow based on something which I've read, that I'll post tomorrow should I be on tomorrow.

The reason why I'm splitting these things into chunks is that if it was all one thread, with all these subjects, I'd probably be just as confused as I am sometimes in the "Evidence" thread :).
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
That's a term you can describe that, but this word, a single word, described a lack of any supernatural beliefs and started with an a, just like atheist or agnostic. When I looked it up, Google defined it and it wasn't just some made up word. From what I remember there was a guy who was trying to start a religion or something based on the premise that there is nothing above nature, and defined it with a word that has been lost to me since he showed me the word. But I know it's a real word, Google defined it when I looked it up, it was one word and not a term, and it started with an a. Can you help me figure it out what it was again?

Antisupernaturalism? Maybe apistevism or animism, depending on the context?
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I like that as a positive statement rather than the typical negative atheist assertion. Are there any atheists who are not metaphysical naturalists? And if so, what does that look like?
A Buddhist can be an Atheist. People can believe in all kinds of supernatural things but not believe in a God.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I like that as a positive statement rather than the typical negative atheist assertion. Are there any atheists who are not metaphysical naturalists? And if so, what does that look like?

Believe it or not, as far as I can tell, most of the atheists here on RF are not metaphysical naturalists. This is mostly because they're empiricists or hardcore philosophical skeptics; metaphysical claims cannot be empirically demonstrated, otherwise they would be physical claims, and so empiricists and skeptics are prone to withhold belief on the proposition.

It's also worth noting that plenty of atheists do believe in the supernatural, too. There are atheist Buddhists who still believe in karma and rebirth. There are atheist Satanists who still believe in a supernatural form of magic. And so on.

In general, I think most atheists are not metaphysical naturalists. I am, but I've noticed that I'm sort of a minority in most atheist spaces on that front.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Believe it or not, as far as I can tell, most of the atheists here on RF are not metaphysical naturalists. This is mostly because they're empiricists or hardcore philosophical skeptics; metaphysical claims cannot be empirically demonstrated, otherwise they would be physical claims, and so empiricists and skeptics are prone to withhold belief on the proposition.

It's also worth noting that plenty of atheists do believe in the supernatural, too. There are atheist Buddhists who still believe in karma and rebirth. There are atheist Satanists who still believe in a supernatural form of magic. And so on.

In general, I think most atheists are not metaphysical naturalists. I am, but I've noticed that I'm sort of a minority in most atheist spaces on that front.
Very interesting point. Speaking just for myself I lean towards a metaphysical naturalism. But you are right, the same skepticism that makes me question supernatural claims also requires that I question naturalism also. And I think there are a lot of atheists, here on RF and in general, who are in the same position.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Let's get a dictionary...a good one.
Definition of atheism | Dictionary.com
It has 2 entries...
1) the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2) disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Think of these definitions as creating the
spectrum between...
Strong atheism - There are no gods!
Weak atheism - I don't believe in gods that might or might not exist (ie, agnosticism).

That's how it works.
I have spoken.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Person A: "Atheism is a religion, too."

Person B: "Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and that's it."
Who are you going to believe? The person who can't understand how anybody can be without religion, credulity and magic, and therefore tries to cast somebody else with no need of those things in his own image,

or the person who doesn't need them at all who simply says, "I don't need them?"

This is only rocket science to people who couldn't do rocket science with the backup of NASA.

I don't believe in God. That's not a religion. I don't collect stamps. That's not a hobby.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Who are you going to believe? The person who can't understand how anybody can be without religion, credulity and magic, and therefore tries to cast somebody else with no need of those things in his own image,

or the person who doesn't need them at all who simply says, "I don't need them?"

This is only rocket science to people who couldn't do rocket science with the backup of NASA.

I don't believe in God. That's not a religion. I don't collect stamps. That's not a hobby.

I'm interested why you did selective quoting which erased the meaning of what I was saying.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Let's get a dictionary...a good one.
Definition of atheism | Dictionary.com
It has 2 entries...
1) the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2) disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Think of these definitions as creating the
spectrum between...
Strong atheism - There are no gods!
Weak atheism - I don't believe in gods that might or might not exist (ie, agnosticism).

That's how it works.
I have spoken.
No you haven't -- you quoted dictionary definitions. :cool:
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
An excerpt from wikipedia's entry on metaphysical naturalism (MN):

According to Steven Schafersman, geologist and president of Texas Citizens for Science, metaphysical naturalism is a philosophy that proposes that: 1. Nature encompasses all that exists throughout space and time; 2. Nature (the universe or cosmos) consists only of natural elements, that is, of spatiotemporal physical substance—massenergy. Non-physical or quasi-physical substance, such as information, ideas, values, logic, mathematics, intellect, and other emergent phenomena, either supervene upon the physical or can be reduced to a physical account; 3. Nature operates by the laws of physics and in principle, can be explained and understood by science and philosophy; and 4. the supernatural does not exist, i.e., only nature is real. Naturalism is therefore a metaphysical philosophy opposed primarily by Biblical creationism.[1]

I would say that mostly fits for me. But the first thing that comes to mind is that what we can explain using science and philosophy is a fast moving target. In other words we can explain more now than we could 20 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago. So things that today might be classified as "supernatural" might be explainable in the future.

Let's take nuclear fusion power as an example. If an advanced race visited the earth 150 years ago with a working fusion generator, it might have been classified as "supernatural".
 
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