Embrace that, Saint. There is no more reason to regret the ability to appreciate the qualities of various doctrines than there is to regret liking more than one color for our garb.
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Atheism produces little hope
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Others here have already said it, but I'll explain again in my own words just to reinforce it.
Atheism doesn't offer anything. It's not a philosophy or belief system. It has no way of swaying people one way or another.
It also doesn't conflict with philosophies that can offer you things, though. For example, I enjoy and apply the philosophies involved in secular humanism. If you want to critique an atheist's beliefs, try addressing what they do believe instead of what they do not believe.
Atheism doesn't offer anything. It's not a philosophy or belief system. It has no way of swaying people one way or another.
It also doesn't conflict with philosophies that can offer you things, though. For example, I enjoy and apply the philosophies involved in secular humanism. If you want to critique an atheist's beliefs, try addressing what they do believe instead of what they do not believe.
My hope is for future generations. That they will succeed and prosper especially in the areas that we failed. I feel genetically connected to my past and assume that connection will continue into the future.
I won't be consciously there but I will still be part of its foundation as I see folks for the past as part of our current foundation.
I suppose I've lost a lot of the egocentric sense of self. I don't need it's continuance to feel hope. Some small part of me will still me there in the future. That I won't be consciously aware of it seems insignificant.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
View attachment 21700 View attachment 21701 So I was studying Shintoism, what used to be the state religion of Japan, and an atheist mocked it.
Shinto's probably don't have the whole truth, and they probably have some legends that are nothing more than someone with a wild imagination.
However, they might have some truth. They build great tombs for their emperors, where they go to pray and burn incense and make wishes.
They believe their Spirits live on as Kami, exalted glorified spirits, and continue looking out for their Nation.
When a family member dies, the family member becomes a "family kami", looking out for the family with the ancestors.
They have many shrines that are dedicated to the soldiers who died in various Wars, where hundreds of thousands of names are written in a book of souls.
They venerate their ancestors and dead relatives, and keep shrines to them.
There are priests and clergy who pray to the kami and care for the shrine, which they believe is a house for the spirits, whom they honor in many ways, accepting any visitors.
The Shinto's believe that everything from rocks, trees, water, the sun, nature, and all creatures, contains something divine, and is evidence for the existence of the Divine.
I was mocked by an Atheist for sharing my recent attempt to practice Shintoism (and connect with the kami and souls of the Emperors of the rising sun), and mentioning a coincidence that came afterwards, that spoke to me.
Perhaps it was just a stupid coincidence with no Supernatural origin... I do actually treat everything with skepticism, despite being very spiritual.
But I honestly felt pity for the atheist who was mocking me.
So back to the title of the thread. I'm not saying that atheists have no hope. If you're happy as an atheist, I don't want you to be a theist..., I want you to be happy.
However, the philosophy of atheism is hopeless, if you look at it in this sense,
What do you have to look forward to 200 years from now? There's really not much hope in that context.
Shinto's, as well as roughly 93% of the world has hope that the spirit goes on living. They also have hope that there are spirits, whether those Spirits be gods, goddesses, kami, Saints, Angels, or ancestors, that look out for and help the world.
Hoping in such things, and prayers to those supernatural entities can produce joy, ecstasy, euphoria, bliss, and peace... I've experienced it many times.
Also, people of many faiths believe that the euphoria, beauty, and joy that we experience on this Earth, is just a foretaste of a much greater euphoria, beauty, and joy after our spirit leaves its body, and travels to perfection, eventually reaching some form of paradise.
That can produce a lot of Hope.
So, these people, who make up the vast majority of the world, can actually hope that 200 years from now, they will be experiencing joy, pleasure, euphoria, and bliss, that the joy and euphoria we experience on Earth, cannot even come close to equaling.
An atheist on the other hand, is stubbornly clinging to the belief that they will just become food for the maggots and worms, rot in a hole, or become a pile of ash.
We evolved from a single cell organism in the ocean or pond scum, there are no Supernatural entities looking out for us, and we will get sick, fall apart, die any day, and there's no hope for anything afterwards.
Now an atheist is not without hope in this context. They can enjoy sensual pleasures, friendships, marriage, hobbies, nature, food, fun, games, adventure, romance, beauty, etc.
But the beauty is fleeting. I'm sure many beautiful people lost their beauty overnight in a firey car crash ,or became paralyzed from the neck down overnight in something similar.
Just an example that everything is fleeting, and all you've worked for can be taken from you today or tomorrow.
The theist has hope that this is not our home. That we have a destiny to find an eternal home that is better than this.
So, in view of what's going to matter 100 years from now, atheism doesn't really produce much, if any hope.
Many theists have almost unshakable hope, and are experiencing peace, joy, and Euphoria in their spiritual practices.
Now what if the 7% of atheists are correct, and the 93% of people who believe in Supernatural entities are mistaken...
Well 200 years from now, the atheists will not be celebrating that they were right, and the theists will not regret that they were wrong.
So, no one really wins...
I've read multiple books by survivors of concentration camps. They said, many of the people that went and grabbed the electric fence to commit suicide, or completely gave up hope and died, were people that had no faith.
People that had strong faith, had more hope, and it made their experience in the concentration camp more bearable.
I could die tomorrow, so I'm going to choose the path that gives me more joy.
I could be wrong, but at least it makes me happy even in some of the worst of circumstances sometimes...that is, studying the various spiritualities of different religions and trying to practice it.
If I die, I'm not going to regret being wrong... and perhaps, that tiny 7% of people who rejected this hope, were so smart they knew better than over 90% of people out there.
Good for them! 100 years from now, none of us will care.
Thoughts?
I'm going to continue my studies of Shintoism for now... and pray to the samurai and emperors of the sun!
View attachment 21703 View attachment 21704
Atheists have little hope for what, exactly? You do realize that an atheist simply does not believe in any god(s), right? There are atheists who believe that there is existence beyond death. They simply see no need for a creator god to be involved.
That said, why must you have hope that you'll still be around 200 years from now in order to be happy? Maybe your goal should be to discover happiness here in THIS life, instead of pretending as if you're eventually going to experience happiness forever. Saying that you can only enjoy life if you know it's going to last forever is like saying that you can't enjoy the beauty of a sunset because it eventually comes to an end.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I'm not likely to live to see 200. I'm also not reproducing so I don't really care. It'd be nice if humanity didn't implode during that time frame, though.
Not all theists have afterlife beliefs.
I see it as giving up on this life. I see it as spiritual poverty, either self-induced or forced onto them by crappy lives.
All of that still happens whether Someone is out there looking at us or not.
Jesus even tells you not to worry about tomorrow because the God Who's looking out for you can take it all away.
I sympathize. I, too, have a crappy life. However, my life doesn't get less crappy by wishing for a new one. All it does for me is reinforce this one sucks.
I've only seen a couple of people die in peace. I've also seen people freak. I've seen my own great-aunt become terrified she will suffocate in the coffin. I get it if you want it to be over. I have those thoughts frequently as well. However, we're frickin' stuck here. Might as well do something.
Look at Jesus: thought the world was gonna end. Helped a few people but mostly tried to stay away from the crowds. Never set up long-lasting infrastructures to help the population and instead baited (partly, obviously he wasn't the only Roman headache) the Romans into attacking the people he supposedly loved. Even Greeks and Romans and others had hospitals. Jesus was just like "well, you happened to brush by my robe, so you win the lottery today health-wise". He was essentially just being lazy and waiting to die, bragging about it endlessly to everyone in earshot. Wasn't too thrilled when the cops showed up, though.
Jesus said there would be others who did things greater than him. Given he didn't do much, that's not a high bar to get over.
And they still died. That was the point of the camps. Ask Dear Leader today. He wants to make some for CHILDREN whose parents crossed the border he doesn't own.
Even DISNEY let go of the star-wishing thing in Princess and the Frog. DISNEY.
Many don't want to live as long as they do NOW. Just imagine you have no end date.
While many theists suffer and die.
And any healthcare person will ask if insurance covers any of it.
idea
Question Everything
Hope...
What is hope exactly?
To have "hope" means you are disgruntled with things the way they are, and want something better to happen in the future...
Why not live in the present, learn to be satisfied with things as they are - if you are content, there is no need for hope.
What is hope exactly?
To have "hope" means you are disgruntled with things the way they are, and want something better to happen in the future...
Why not live in the present, learn to be satisfied with things as they are - if you are content, there is no need for hope.
Yerda
Veteran Member
You can hope to be content in the future?
idea
Question Everything
I can be content here and now, without the need to hope for anything.
Yerda
Veteran Member
Well, ok. That is a skill.
idea
Question Everything
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery...
I think peace is achieved through letting go of desires, and being content with what is.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
View attachment 21700 View attachment 21701 So I was studying Shintoism, what used to be the state religion of Japan, and an atheist mocked it.
Shinto's probably don't have the whole truth, and they probably have some legends that are nothing more than someone with a wild imagination.
However, they might have some truth. They build great tombs for their emperors, where they go to pray and burn incense and make wishes.
They believe their Spirits live on as Kami, exalted glorified spirits, and continue looking out for their Nation.
When a family member dies, the family member becomes a "family kami", looking out for the family with the ancestors.
They have many shrines that are dedicated to the soldiers who died in various Wars, where hundreds of thousands of names are written in a book of souls.
They venerate their ancestors and dead relatives, and keep shrines to them.
There are priests and clergy who pray to the kami and care for the shrine, which they believe is a house for the spirits, whom they honor in many ways, accepting any visitors.
The Shinto's believe that everything from rocks, trees, water, the sun, nature, and all creatures, contains something divine, and is evidence for the existence of the Divine.
I was mocked by an Atheist for sharing my recent attempt to practice Shintoism (and connect with the kami and souls of the Emperors of the rising sun), and mentioning a coincidence that came afterwards, that spoke to me.
Perhaps it was just a stupid coincidence with no Supernatural origin... I do actually treat everything with skepticism, despite being very spiritual.
But I honestly felt pity for the atheist who was mocking me.
So back to the title of the thread. I'm not saying that atheists have no hope. If you're happy as an atheist, I don't want you to be a theist..., I want you to be happy.
However, the philosophy of atheism is hopeless, if you look at it in this sense,
What do you have to look forward to 200 years from now? There's really not much hope in that context.
Shinto's, as well as roughly 93% of the world has hope that the spirit goes on living. They also have hope that there are spirits, whether those Spirits be gods, goddesses, kami, Saints, Angels, or ancestors, that look out for and help the world.
Hoping in such things, and prayers to those supernatural entities can produce joy, ecstasy, euphoria, bliss, and peace... I've experienced it many times.
Also, people of many faiths believe that the euphoria, beauty, and joy that we experience on this Earth, is just a foretaste of a much greater euphoria, beauty, and joy after our spirit leaves its body, and travels to perfection, eventually reaching some form of paradise.
That can produce a lot of Hope.
So, these people, who make up the vast majority of the world, can actually hope that 200 years from now, they will be experiencing joy, pleasure, euphoria, and bliss, that the joy and euphoria we experience on Earth, cannot even come close to equaling.
An atheist on the other hand, is stubbornly clinging to the belief that they will just become food for the maggots and worms, rot in a hole, or become a pile of ash.
We evolved from a single cell organism in the ocean or pond scum, there are no Supernatural entities looking out for us, and we will get sick, fall apart, die any day, and there's no hope for anything afterwards.
Now an atheist is not without hope in this context. They can enjoy sensual pleasures, friendships, marriage, hobbies, nature, food, fun, games, adventure, romance, beauty, etc.
But the beauty is fleeting. I'm sure many beautiful people lost their beauty overnight in a firey car crash ,or became paralyzed from the neck down overnight in something similar.
Just an example that everything is fleeting, and all you've worked for can be taken from you today or tomorrow.
The theist has hope that this is not our home. That we have a destiny to find an eternal home that is better than this.
So, in view of what's going to matter 100 years from now, atheism doesn't really produce much, if any hope.
Many theists have almost unshakable hope, and are experiencing peace, joy, and Euphoria in their spiritual practices.
Now what if the 7% of atheists are correct, and the 93% of people who believe in Supernatural entities are mistaken...
Well 200 years from now, the atheists will not be celebrating that they were right, and the theists will not regret that they were wrong.
So, no one really wins...
I've read multiple books by survivors of concentration camps. They said, many of the people that went and grabbed the electric fence to commit suicide, or completely gave up hope and died, were people that had no faith.
People that had strong faith, had more hope, and it made their experience in the concentration camp more bearable.
I could die tomorrow, so I'm going to choose the path that gives me more joy.
I could be wrong, but at least it makes me happy even in some of the worst of circumstances sometimes...that is, studying the various spiritualities of different religions and trying to practice it.
If I die, I'm not going to regret being wrong... and perhaps, that tiny 7% of people who rejected this hope, were so smart they knew better than over 90% of people out there.
Good for them! 100 years from now, none of us will care.
Thoughts?
I'm going to continue my studies of Shintoism for now... and pray to the samurai and emperors of the sun!
View attachment 21703 View attachment 21704
Why is atheism required to produce hope???
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I would think an atheist would deny the existence of the kami...Shinto means "the way of the kami"...if someone denies that the kami exist as a supernatural entity, they aren't Shinto in my book...
The Kami exist, certainly on the role that best suits them. They are very much unlike the God of Abraham - and IMO we are all that much better off for that.
It seems to me that there is little if any need to believe in their literal existence. They are much more fruitful as sources of inspiration.
Cacotopia
Let's go full Trottle
Yet they still identify as Hindus, why is it you continue to speak for those you quite clearly do not know about? But then counter with "but I could be wrong or I'm willing to say I don't know" as if it makes your under the table insulting remarks okay. If I don't know I will state I don't know. If I am unqualified to remark on the topic I will state my lack of qualification on the topic, if I want to talk about something I don't know that much about I will try to educate myself first. And if I am wrong, I am grateful for others that have helped me correct my misinformed opinion. But I don't think your intentions here are to learn from the collective, but I could be wrong.
There is always room for improvement somewhere. A more efficient system, a better methodology for accomplishing things, more knowledge to help the future no make the mistakes of the past and today. The role of the present generation is try to improve the current situation and when we fail, learn from those mistakes and teach future generations to hopefully not repeat them.
The current world climate leaves much to hope for irregardless of belief or non belief. Being content and not seeking improvement is partially what retards progress.
Looncall
Well-Known Member
Yes, yes, lots of successful scams that keep pews and collection plates full.
True, most western atheist, nor western religions would believe in kami, but it remains that atheist/agnosticism concerning the existence of God(s) is the dominant belief in Shinto and Zen Buddhism of Japan.
Kami is not necessarily incompatible with atheism. It is a poorly understood concept in the West.
All things material contain kami, and . . .
Kami can refer to beings or to a quality which beings possess, or in some cases spiritual beings, but more likely spiritual being made up of kami like material beings..
From: BBC - Religions - Shinto: Kami
So the word is used to refer to both the essence of existence or beingness which is found in everything, and to particular things which display the essence of existence in an awe-inspiring way.
But while everything contains kami, only those things which show their kami-nature in a particularly striking way are referred to as kami.
Kami as a property is the sacred or mystical element in almost anything. It is in everything and is found everywhere, and is what makes an object itself rather than something else. The word means that which is hidden.
Kami have a specific life-giving, harmonising power, called musubi, and a truthful will, called makoto (also translated as sincerity).
Some refer to kami as God(s), but that results more from a history of mistranslation of Japanese texts and the Bible.
Kami evolved from ancient Chinese Shinto animism.
View attachment 21700 View attachment 21701 So I was studying Shintoism, what used to be the state religion of Japan, and an atheist mocked it.
Shinto's probably don't have the whole truth, and they probably have some legends that are nothing more than someone with a wild imagination.
However, they might have some truth. They build great tombs for their emperors, where they go to pray and burn incense and make wishes.
They believe their Spirits live on as Kami, exalted glorified spirits, and continue looking out for their Nation.
When a family member dies, the family member becomes a "family kami", looking out for the family with the ancestors.
They have many shrines that are dedicated to the soldiers who died in various Wars, where hundreds of thousands of names are written in a book of souls.
They venerate their ancestors and dead relatives, and keep shrines to them.
There are priests and clergy who pray to the kami and care for the shrine, which they believe is a house for the spirits, whom they honor in many ways, accepting any visitors.
The Shinto's believe that everything from rocks, trees, water, the sun, nature, and all creatures, contains something divine, and is evidence for the existence of the Divine.
I was mocked by an Atheist for sharing my recent attempt to practice Shintoism (and connect with the kami and souls of the Emperors of the rising sun), and mentioning a coincidence that came afterwards, that spoke to me.
Perhaps it was just a stupid coincidence with no Supernatural origin... I do actually treat everything with skepticism, despite being very spiritual.
But I honestly felt pity for the atheist who was mocking me.
So back to the title of the thread. I'm not saying that atheists have no hope. If you're happy as an atheist, I don't want you to be a theist..., I want you to be happy.
However, the philosophy of atheism is hopeless, if you look at it in this sense,
What do you have to look forward to 200 years from now? There's really not much hope in that context.
Shinto's, as well as roughly 93% of the world has hope that the spirit goes on living. They also have hope that there are spirits, whether those Spirits be gods, goddesses, kami, Saints, Angels, or ancestors, that look out for and help the world.
Hoping in such things, and prayers to those supernatural entities can produce joy, ecstasy, euphoria, bliss, and peace... I've experienced it many times.
Also, people of many faiths believe that the euphoria, beauty, and joy that we experience on this Earth, is just a foretaste of a much greater euphoria, beauty, and joy after our spirit leaves its body, and travels to perfection, eventually reaching some form of paradise.
That can produce a lot of Hope.
So, these people, who make up the vast majority of the world, can actually hope that 200 years from now, they will be experiencing joy, pleasure, euphoria, and bliss, that the joy and euphoria we experience on Earth, cannot even come close to equaling.
An atheist on the other hand, is stubbornly clinging to the belief that they will just become food for the maggots and worms, rot in a hole, or become a pile of ash.
We evolved from a single cell organism in the ocean or pond scum, there are no Supernatural entities looking out for us, and we will get sick, fall apart, die any day, and there's no hope for anything afterwards.
Now an atheist is not without hope in this context. They can enjoy sensual pleasures, friendships, marriage, hobbies, nature, food, fun, games, adventure, romance, beauty, etc.
But the beauty is fleeting. I'm sure many beautiful people lost their beauty overnight in a firey car crash ,or became paralyzed from the neck down overnight in something similar.
Just an example that everything is fleeting, and all you've worked for can be taken from you today or tomorrow.
The theist has hope that this is not our home. That we have a destiny to find an eternal home that is better than this.
So, in view of what's going to matter 100 years from now, atheism doesn't really produce much, if any hope.
Many theists have almost unshakable hope, and are experiencing peace, joy, and Euphoria in their spiritual practices.
Now what if the 7% of atheists are correct, and the 93% of people who believe in Supernatural entities are mistaken...
Well 200 years from now, the atheists will not be celebrating that they were right, and the theists will not regret that they were wrong.
So, no one really wins...
I've read multiple books by survivors of concentration camps. They said, many of the people that went and grabbed the electric fence to commit suicide, or completely gave up hope and died, were people that had no faith.
People that had strong faith, had more hope, and it made their experience in the concentration camp more bearable.
I could die tomorrow, so I'm going to choose the path that gives me more joy.
I could be wrong, but at least it makes me happy even in some of the worst of circumstances sometimes...that is, studying the various spiritualities of different religions and trying to practice it.
If I die, I'm not going to regret being wrong... and perhaps, that tiny 7% of people who rejected this hope, were so smart they knew better than over 90% of people out there.
Good for them! 100 years from now, none of us will care.
Thoughts?
I'm going to continue my studies of Shintoism for now... and pray to the samurai and emperors of the sun!
View attachment 21703 View attachment 21704
You're reading waaaay too much into atheism. It isn't a 'philosophy', for one, and there is no dogma, so therefore what one atheist believes is stupid really has no impact on what others think. Atheism doesn't mean much, at the end of the day.
Atheism does represent the the philosophical claim of Philosophical Naturalism. The dogma of atheism is the belief that no God(s) exist.