Atheism vs agnosticism

[Melody]

From another thread:

It is quite natural for Christians to want to demonise the Atheists, but remember that (strong) Atheists arent against God. They are against the idea of God.. (note that not all Atheists are against religion - they accept the possibility of God being real and see no reason to regard religion as an evil).

Every definition I've read says that an atheist is someone who does not believe in a deity. If someone accepts the possibility of God being real, then they are an agnostic.

I'm not sure why you want to take a potshot at Christians, but I don't know of any Christians who "demonise" atheists....unless you've been hanging around the christian right forums which are not, despite the fact that they make sensational headlines, the majority of christians. They're just the loudest.

I always keep that in mind when visiting atheist forums where it is espoused that a belief in God indicates stupidity or delusional behavior. I would call it demonizing but it would not be correct since they don't believe in demons.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is unclear to me what the first paragraph has to do with the title, or what the second and third paragraph has to do with either.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I always keep that in mind when visiting atheist forums where it is espoused that a belief in God indicates stupidity or delusional behavior.

Speaking of which, could you explain the difference between theism, superstition, and delusion?

 

[Fat Old Sun]

Speaking of which, could you explain the difference between theism, superstition, and delusion?

The difference would be in the eye, or in this case the mind, of the beholder.

 

[justa_gurl]

Main Entry: athe·ist -- 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
http://63.240.197.90/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=atheist

atheism /aythi-iz’m/
• noun the belief that God does not exist.
— DERIVATIVES atheist noun atheistic adjective atheistical adjective.
— ORIGIN from Greek a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.
http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&field-12668446=atheist&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score%2Cname

1. Atheism
‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/#1

atheism
Belief that god does not exist. Unlike the agnostic, who merely criticizes traditional arguments for the existence of a deity, the atheist must offer evidence (such as the problem of evil) that there is no god or propose a strong principle for denying what is not known to be true.
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/a9.htm#athe

Melody, you're absolutely correct in the traditional sense. Atheism is defined as the belief that God does not exist. But then one day.. </goes into story telling mode ...]

...the poor little atheist discovered that the burden of proof made their 'logically superior' argument impossible to defend! Oh no! What did they do? Well, rather than convert to the stance of agnosticism and take an 'unsure' position on the question of existence, they decided it was better to rename the honest 'unsure' to 'no'.... and they called it "mild atheism".... By assimilating the agnostics position of 'no belief' and negating it as a stance, they were able to legitamize their stance with the 'no belief' issue and boost their failing numbers, all while retaining their cool, intellectual rebel type appeal. :biglaugh:

What? I'm KIDDING! It's time we atheists take a hit for a change...

 

[Tawn]

Every definition I've read says that an atheist is someone who does not believe in a deity. If someone accepts the possibility of God being real, then they are an agnostic.

Agnosticism and Atheism arent separate categories.
You can be both. In fact generally there are four categories.

Gnostic Atheist - Believe 100% that there is no God.
Agnostic Atheist - Lack of belief in God.
Agnostic Theist - Believe there is a God, but no certainty.
Gnostic Theist - Believe 100% there is a God.

Agnosticism is really about whether you believe God is knowable. Read the Agnostic forum description.

I'm not sure why you want to take a potshot at Christians, but I don't know of any Christians who "demonise" atheists....unless you've been hanging around the christian right forums which are not, despite the fact that they make sensational headlines, the majority of christians. They're just the loudest.

Bleh, you should know by now I dont mean all Christians.. call it laziness on my part that I didnt add the word 'some'.

I always keep that in mind when visiting atheist forums where it is espoused that a belief in God indicates stupidity or delusional behavior. I would call it demonizing but it would not be correct since they don't believe in demons.

There is an association between stupidity and the belief in God only because of the way some Theists come to the conclusion that there is a God. Its an unfair steriotype. Equally there are stupid Atheists who havent really questioned their reasons properly.

 

[michel]

I think you are are cheating, Tawn;

your:-Gnostic Atheist - Believe 100% that there is no God.
Agnostic Atheist - Lack of belief in God.
Agnostic Theist - Believe there is a God, but no certainty.
Gnostic Theist - Believe 100% there is a God

Does that mean that you can have ,say, an agnostic theist? - surely, by using the words agnostic, for example, in conjuction with atheist, is just plain old agnostic ? You can't believe that there is no deity, whilst keeping your option to change your mind?

 

[Tawn]

I think you are are cheating, Tawn;

Ohh err..

your:-Gnostic Atheist - Believe 100% that there is no God.
Agnostic Atheist - Lack of belief in God.
Agnostic Theist - Believe there is a God, but no certainty.
Gnostic Theist - Believe 100% there is a God

Does that mean that you can have ,say, an agnostic theist?

Read again.

- surely, by using the words agnostic, for example, in conjuction with atheist, is just plain old agnostic ?

Its what you understand to be a 'plain old agnostic'.
Atheism literally means 'without belief in God'.

You can't believe that there is no deity, whilst keeping your option to change your mind?

Why not? I can believe something and accept the possibility of being wrong. I believe there is X amount of pounds in my bank - yet it could have been stolen by a thief this morning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Does that mean that you can have ,say, an agnostic theist?

The fideist, some variants of deism, some daoists, ...

 

[Tawn]

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathq_atheism101.htm

Listen - here is a GREAT explanation of Atheism and Agnosticism and Strong Vs Weak Atheism. Read it.. dont listen to Theists who would love to tell you their version of what Atheism means. Thats like me telling you what Christians believe.

Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different. According to them, atheism is the denial of the existence of any gods; the absence of belief in any gods is, for some strange reason, often ignored — at best it might be mistakenly referred to as agnosticism, which is actually the position that knowledge of gods is not possible.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Every definition I've read says that an atheist is someone who does not believe in a deity. If someone accepts the possibility of God being real, then they are an agnostic.

Herein lies the problem, Melody--ontology and epistemology are two seperate categories. One can both not believe that white crows exist and accept the possibility that white crows exist. Similarly, one can be both atheist and agnostic.

Also, just to nitpick....atheists can believe in demons (though most don't).

 

[Majikthise]

Atheist or agnostic , we just don't want the dogma.:149:

 

[Tawn]

To be perfectly honest I think Theists should stop telling Atheists and Agnostics what they believe. We all have our own individual beliefs and nobody else can tell you differently. To be perfectly honest it is *&$&*#%& annoying when Theists presume to know the minds of Atheists better than Atheists do.

I am an Atheist and an Agnostic.
I do not believe in God.
I believe that there is not a God. (this is NOT the same as the preceding statement)
I am not certain my beliefs are absolutely true, my beliefs follow what I deem to be likely and possible.
Not all Atheists and Agnostics share these views.

 

[Melody]

Speaking of which, could you explain the difference between theism, superstition, and delusion?

Not to a non-theist and it's not necessary to do so for a theist because they already know.

 

[Melody]

To be perfectly honest I think Theists should stop telling Atheists and Agnostics what they believe. We all have our own individual beliefs and nobody else can tell you differently. To be perfectly honest it is *&$&*#%& annoying when Theists presume to know the minds of Atheists better than Atheists do.

I am an Atheist and an Agnostic.
I do not believe in God.
I believe that there is not a God. (this is NOT the same as the preceding statement)
I am not certain my beliefs are absolutely true, my beliefs follow what I deem to be likely and possible.
Not all Atheists and Agnostics share these views.

Tawn,
We're just trying to define atheism and agnosticism. If the definition changes whenever someone feels like it, then we are unable to have an intelligent conversation because we're all operating under different understandings of the word.

It's a bit like discussing tractors, but your definition resembles an SUV and mine resembles a farm tractor. The whole discussion is off kilter because we aren't talking about the same thing at all.

So, if I use the accepted definition (see Websters and most other dictionaries) as the belief that a deity does not exist and you use one that says a deity may but probably not, the discussion just won't go.

 

[Melody]

Herein lies the problem, Melody--ontology and epistemology are two seperate categories. One can both not believe that white crows exist and accept the possibility that white crows exist. Similarly, one can be both atheist and agnostic.

Also, just to nitpick....atheists can believe in demons (though most don't).

That seems contradictory because if you accept the possibility that they exist, then you haven't quite reached the belief that they absolutely do not. If you believe that they do not exist, then how can you accept the possibility that they do.

 

[Tawn]

Tawn,
We're just trying to define atheism and agnosticism. If the definition changes whenever someone feels like it, then we are unable to have an intelligent conversation because we're all operating under different understandings of the word.

It's a bit like discussing tractors, but your definition resembles an SUV and mine resembles a farm tractor. The whole discussion is off kilter because we aren't talking about the same thing at all.

So, if I use the accepted definition (see Websters and most other dictionaries) as the belief that a deity does not exist and you use one that says a deity may but probably not, the discussion just won't go.

Goodo.. so long as you take the Atheists word.. because its their definition that counts isnt it? Im referring to Theists who presume to tell the Atheist what their views are. Very annoying.

Anyway that link I provided is an excellent explanation.

 

[Tawn]

That seems contradictory because if you accept the possibility that they exist, then you haven't quite reached the belief that they absolutely do not. If you believe that they do not exist, then how can you accept the possibility that they do.

Belief is not an absolute state of mind. If you believe something, you have a reasonable idea that your belief is true - but there is room for error. In the same way that you believe you will get treated professionally for an injury or illness in hospital - yet theres still a chance you wont. In the same way that when you board an aeroplane you believe it will make it to its destination safely.. but theres no certainty.

 

[lilithu]

I think you are are cheating, Tawn;

your:-Gnostic Atheist - Believe 100% that there is no God.
Agnostic Atheist - Lack of belief in God.
Agnostic Theist - Believe there is a God, but no certainty.
Gnostic Theist - Believe 100% there is a God

Does that mean that you can have ,say, an agnostic theist? - surely, by using the words agnostic, for example, in conjuction with atheist, is just plain old agnostic ? You can't believe that there is no deity, whilst keeping your option to change your mind?

Hey Michel, namaste.

Agnosticism is not a lack of certainty regarding the existence of God. As Spinks said, there are two separate philosophical categories operating here, and it is an error to confuse the two. Agnosticism is the epistemological stance, with certainty, that is is impossible to prove/know whether God exists or does not exist. Otoh, one can take the epistemological stance that it is possible to prove/know whether God exists or does not exist. I would not call these people "Gnostic" since that word implies an entirely different thing altogether.

Separate from that, one can take an ontological stance as to the existence or non-existence of God. Or, I think, one can not take an ontological stance either way. One can live one's life without ever thinking about the "issue." Tho it seems exceedingly difficult to me to be discussing God all the time, as we do here, and not take a stance one way or the other as to the existence of "God".

I am an agnostic theist, so yes, you can have them. -lilith

 

[Faust]

God is an explanation for existence. However, God can neither be proved nor disproved with certainty. I do not belive that supplying an answer for anything that can't be proved or disproved is valid.
By this logic, for me God is an invalid answer to anything, therefore for me any way, God does not exist. So I am not any combination of any terms. I am an atheist, period.
Faust.