Atheist (and everyone). What about prayer

[ChristineM]

You think people who pray don’t also donate?

Some do I'm sure,

 

[anna.]

Something I read on another thread gave birth to this thread.

If a christian has a sick family member or friend they pray they get better.

If a christian has a family member or friend going into war they pray they make it home safe.

If a christian hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they pray they aren't hurt bad/fully recover.

If an atheist has a sick family member or friend they....?

If an atheist has a family member or friend going into war they.....?

If an atheist hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they....?

What do you do since you don't pray?

Hope?
Wish?
Nothing?
Anything?
.............?

I pray. But - I can understand those who don't pray, I often feel like I'm walking a tightrope between the two things.

Watching coverage of the tornados that went through the middle of the country a week or so ago, there was one woman who said, repeatedly, that God had saved her and her family - they asked Him for protection and He provided it, and praise God for His goodness, etc. And once again I wondered what about her neighbors, the ones God didn't save? The two little children that died? Why didn't God save them too? What might her answer have been?

And I come back to the same conundrum - if a Christian (including myself in this) asks God for something and receives the answer they hope for, then God answered their prayer. If the Christian doesn't receive the answer they hope for, well, then God had a better plan, and they accept God's will in their lives, and that's still an answer to their prayer. In doing this they feel no conflict then; regardless of whether the prayer was answered in the way the person praying hoped, God still heard them, and will comfort them through the denial of their prayer request.

 

[Trailblazer]

That religious people pray for outcomes, is based on a misconception of the purpose of prayer, I think. Take the following as an example; we are not praying for solutions for specific problems, but rather for God's support in being helpful to our fellows.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is error, the truth;
where there is doubt, the faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Amen.

​

The fact remains that a lot of religious people do pray for specific things but to me that is like saying I know more about what I need than God knows. I usually only pray for assistance. I rarely ever pay for something specific and when I do I always add "if it be your will."

A favorite short Baha'i prayer that I say when I am having a hard time, which is most of the time, is as follows:

I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright through Thine inspiration. Thou art God, potent art Thou to do what Thou desirest. No one can withstand Thy Will or thwart Thy Purpose.

The Báb

 

[HonestJoe]

What do you do since you don't pray?

Offering practical help, advice or support where appropriate, and obviously hoping for the best possible outcome regardless. You know, exactly the same kind of things any normal person would, regardless of whether they're religious or not and whether they also pray for them too.

If the only thing a religious person considers in such situations is prayer, I'd respectfully suggest they'd be the one with questions to answer.

 

[viole]

Something I read on another thread gave birth to this thread.

If a christian has a sick family member or friend they pray they get better.

If a christian has a family member or friend going into war they pray they make it home safe.

If a christian hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they pray they aren't hurt bad/fully recover.

If an atheist has a sick family member or friend they....?

If an atheist has a family member or friend going into war they.....?

If an atheist hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they....?

What do you do since you don't pray?

Hope?
Wish?
Nothing?
Anything?
.............?

the main question to ask is what logic is followed when praying, so that the sick dear one, or oneself, stays longer in what is believed to a be a corrupted place. A valley of tears. Which will be eventually replaced by a far better home, anyway. Where they will meet Jesus in complete bliss. Why prolong the agony? Makes really no sense.

If they were logically coherent, they should pray that their dear ones, or oneself, do not recover. Anything shot of that, and that will indicate they believe in Jesus and heaven as much as I do.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Help them, generally.

I can't wave my hand and make someone's cancer go away, but I can visit them when they're sick to try to cheer them up or, say, mow their lawn when they're not feeling up to doing it themselves.

I can't go back in time to stop a car crash from happening, but I can try to connect them with a used car, or help them navigate dealing with insurance, or carpool with them.

I'll take that over prayers any day.

 

[ppp]

Something I read on another thread gave birth to this thread.

If a christian has a sick family member or friend they pray they get better.

If a christian has a family member or friend going into war they pray they make it home safe.

If a christian hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they pray they aren't hurt bad/fully recover.

If an atheist has a sick family member or friend they....?

If an atheist has a family member or friend going into war they.....?

If an atheist hears a family member or friend has been in a wreck they....?

What do you do since you don't pray?

Hope?
Wish?
Nothing?
Anything?
.............?

We worry. If there is an avenue of action that can help, then we take it. From what I have observed and experienced, most Christians do likewise. Prayer does not seem to be anything more than a coping mechanism. A way to feel that your are doing something productive when there is nothing real that you can do.

 

[We Never Know]

Help them, generally.

I can't wave my hand and make someone's cancer go away, but I can visit them when they're sick to try to cheer them up or, say, mow their lawn when they're not feeling up to doing it themselves.

I can't go back in time to stop a car crash from happening, but I can try to connect them with a used car, or help them navigate dealing with insurance, or carpool with them.

Most christians I know would do the same

 

[RestlessSoul]

I pray. But - I can understand those who don't pray, I often feel like I'm walking a tightrope between the two things.

Watching coverage of the tornados that went through the middle of the country a week or so ago, there was one woman who said, repeatedly, that God had saved her and her family - they asked Him for protection and He provided it, and praise God for His goodness, etc. And once again I wondered what about her neighbors, the ones God didn't save? The two little children that died? Why didn't God save them too? What might her answer have been?

And I come back to the same conundrum - if a Christian (including myself in this) asks God for something and receives the answer they hope for, then God answered their prayer. If the Christian doesn't receive the answer they hope for, well, then God had a better plan, and they accept God's will in their lives, and that's still an answer to their prayer. In doing this they feel no conflict then; regardless of whether the prayer was answered in the way the person praying hoped, God still heard them, and will comfort them through the denial of their prayer request.

An example of this principle from the Gospels; in the Garden of Gethsemene, Jesus prayed to the Father to take the cup of suffering from him, if it be His will. The Father did not take the cup from him, and Jesus knew he must prepare himself to drain it; meanwhile, however, the Father sent an Angel to comfort him in the garden.

 

[HonestJoe]

Most christians I know would do the same

Then what made you think atheists (or religious people who don't believe in intersessional prayer) might do anything different beyond simply "not praying"?

 

[We Never Know]

Then what made you think atheists (or religious people who don't believe in intersessional prayer) might do anything different beyond simply "not praying"?

I don't pray. Beyond helping when and if I can..
-I do wish people well.
-I do tell people I hope you feel better.

Sometimes encouraging words are all one can do. Some use prayer. Some use words like wish and hope.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some do I'm sure,

Mostly to their own church and community.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

the main question to ask is what logic is followed when praying, so that the sick dear one, or oneself, stays longer in what is believed to a be a corrupted place. A valley of tears. Which will be eventually replaced by a far better home, anyway. Where they will meet Jesus in complete bliss. Why prolong the agony? Makes really no sense.

If they were logically coherent, they should pray that their dear ones, or oneself, do not recover. Anything shot of that, and that will indicate they believe in Jesus and heaven as much as I do.

Ciao

- viole

That makes no sense at all. None. Not one shred. Yes, they are told of their eternal rewards, but many of them actually do view life as sacred, a gift given to them by their god. Be ye not of this world, but there's still much wonder and greatness in gods creation. They don't want to leave friends and family.
Ideally they pray for Jehovah's will. Be that health or illness depends on him amd him alone, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Amd remember, Jesus says he is the Lord of the Living, not of the Dead.

 

[Altfish]

I think the whole prayer discussion is answered by the question ... "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?"

Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

 

[ChristineM]

Mostly to their own church and community.

Precisely

 

[viole]

That makes no sense at all. None. Not one shred. Yes, they are told of their eternal rewards, but many of them actually do view life as sacred, a gift given to them by their god. Be ye not of this world, but there's still much wonder and greatness in gods creation. They don't want to leave friends and family.

Yeah, but according to the manual they follow, they will not die. Jesus took that famous Passover weekend off, so that they will live. There is no death for them.

Therefore, I am not sure what your point is. Especially because apart from some decades, which are totally insignificant when compared with eternity, they will go there anyways. So, why prolong the agony in a place like this that gave them cancer, and have things like Mariah Carey and such? And why should they be afraid to leave friends and family? Either they will follow him, or they will be lost for all eternity anyway. And what do you mean with wonder in God's creation? Are you telling me that Heaven is going to look worse than this earth?

So, it is quite clear. When Mr. X is diagnosed with cancer, and he happens to be a Christian, or member of some competing beliefs, the fact that he prays to stay here longer can only be rationally explained by him believing in the afterlife as much as I do. It is a sort of metaphysical knocking on wood. Something we know it does not work, but we still need to do.

I mean, it just takes five seconds of rational thinking to see that. IOW: it is a no brainer.

I wonder what Jesus thinks when He hears: please Lord Jesus, can you please make it so that I can delay my meeting with You?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I mean, it just takes five seconds of rational thinking to see that. IOW: it is a no brainer.

Only because you fundamentally do not understand their worldview. A good deal of church theology and philosophy has revolved around the question of how can I be certain I am saved? Some say it's predetermined, but there are some indicators you may be in among the Elected. Some say we cannot know until we are judged, and some believe the admittance is limited to 144,000.

 

[Spice]

Said the straight man to the late man
Where have you been?
I've been here and I've been there
And I've been in between

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear
The wind cannot hear

I'm on the outside looking inside
What do I see?
Much confusion, disillusion
All around me

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear
The wind cannot hear

You don't possess me
Don't impress me
Just upset my mind
Can't instruct me or conduct me
Just use up my time

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear
The wind cannot hear

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear
The wind cannot hear

Said the straight man to the late man
Where have you been?
I've been here and I've been there and
I've been in between

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Precisely

I think it's an excellent question of ethics. Who's giving is better? Is either sort of giving better? And why do these groups give differently?

 

[viole]

Only because you fundamentally do not understand their worldview. A good deal of church theology and philosophy has revolved around the question of how can I be certain I am saved? Some say it's predetermined, but there are some indicators you may be in among the Elected. Some say we cannot know until we are judged, and some believe the admittance is limited to 144,000.

Oh, OK. However, still totally nonsensical.

Is that something like this?

Oh please Jesus, make the cancer therapy work, for I am not sure I will spend the rest of eternity with you, vs. being fried for all eternity, because of Your numerus clausus for Heaven admission.

Is that so?

Ciao

- viole