Atheists: If God existed…

[Trailblazer]

Secular Societies Fare Better Than Religious Societies

Only materially.

The way for us to live in peace and harmony is simply to get rid of religions and live according to the Golden Rule and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

That will never happen because humans could never agree and organize and make it happen.

Oh gee, yes another new religion is absolutely what we need, we only have about 4,200 already...

We need one religion, not 4,200.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11: 1"
Faith is supposed to be the evidence.

According to the Bible, not according to the Baha'i Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wrong. You don't acquire knowledge of something just by hoping it is true. I can believe I will be a millionaire tomorrow as strong as I want and it still won't happen.

I never said anything about hoping. I said I have knowledge of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

What would be the purpose of, the reason for, the meaning of the existence of this god?

I do not know what you mean.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I never said my religion is above the other religions. I only ever said it is the “current” religion of God, the religion that is pertinent for this age in history.

Same thing.

No, other religions do not recognize all the major religions that preceded their religion as legitimate. Only Islam does so.

I said "other religions make similar claims" i.e progressive revelation, etc.

I trust the Baha’i Faith because its theology of progressive revelation makes logical sense and because its teachings and laws make sense, and they are what is needed for humanity in this new Day of God. I also trust Baha’i because I believe that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God.

The question is: why?

You asked me how I knew. The prophecies and exactly how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in the book. The prophecies match up with events that actually took place in history and geographical places that exist line up with the prophecies.

And why do you trust the book's accounts of the prophecies and the events that supposedly fulfilled them?

Again, I could be wrong, but someone would have to prove me wrong in order for me to believe that. Good luck.

So you've gone from claiming that it was impossible for you to be wrong, to saying that you could be wrong. That is an improvement.

Also, it should be your job to demonstrate your beliefs are true - it is not the job of others to disprove a proposition before you have provided sufficient reason to accept it.

The evidence for Baha’u’llah being a Manifestation of God is as follows:

What He was like as a person (His character);
What He did during His mission on earth;
The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
What others have written about Him;
The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
The predictions He made that have come to pass;
The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.​

​

And how do you know any of this?

I do not need independent verification to support the belief in progressive revelation, history supports it.

History WOULD be independent verification. So what supports it?

The fact that there are many religions that have come successively throughout all time proves that revelation is successive. By looking at those religions it can be seen that religion progresses over time.

Thought progresses over time. That doesn't make any specific claims by any religion more likely to be true.

I said “in my mind” as my mind is right now. I also said that if you could prove that the Baha’i Faith is wrong I will admit it is wrong. Good luck.

Since it's impossible to prove a proposition, especially an unfalisfiable one, wrong, what you are suggesting is impossible, so it is impossible for you to change your mind.

Oh yes you could prove it is wrong.

How? Please give me a hypothetical example of something I could demonstrate that would prove Baha'i false.

All you’d have to do is prove that Baha’u’llah was a liar or a con-man or deluded. Good luck.

Again, how? What could I show you that would convince you of that?

Also, my cousin says he is a genie. Can you prove he is a liar?

That is true, the time to believe something is when something has enough support to conclude it is more likely true than not but if someone can produce evidence AGAINST your conclusion then you would have to walk away, unless you were a fool.

You got that right up until the second half. It is not incumbent upon others to demonstrate a proposition is false. The burden is always on you to demonstrate that it is true - including to yourself. If you do not have sufficient justification for a belief, nobody need demonstrate it to be false.

That is a straw man. I told you more than once that if you could prove I am wrong I would walk away. That means it is possible I am wrong.

No, Trailblazer, it's not a strawan and that is a lie. You clearly stated only a few posts ago:

Post 163:
"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

Please do not repeat that again. I already told you I would admit I am wrong if you can prove I am wrong. Why should I admit I am wrong about something I have so much evidence for unless it can be proven wrong?

You've yet to provide a single good reason for why you believe what you believe. You have insufficient reason to accept it. It is not incumbent upon others to demonstrate it false, you have to demonstrate it to be true.

Yes, that is the starting point for investigation but I am not at the starting point. I have been a Baha’i for almost 49 years.

And yet you cannot provide sufficient reason to accept it.

How do you know that I have not critically evaluated the Baha’i Faith? You cannot even imagine how much research I have done and how much I have thought about it and analyzed it.

I know that anyone who claims that it is impossible for them to be wrong about something is clearly not a rational person, and thus far you have given me no reason to believe that you have critically and honestly evaluated your beliefs. You've presented nothing.

It is not as if I want to believe the Baha’i Faith is true. In some ways I wish I was not a Baha’i because it carries a huge responsibility. What do you think I am getting for myself for spending every waking hour of my free time on forums for almost seven years? I see no end to all this work as long as I am a Baha’i because I am the kind of person who takes my responsibilities very seriously. Meanwhile most people my age are either retired or preparing and planning for a retirement in which they will be having fun and enjoying themselves. I am very well off so I could do almost anything I might want to do, but I simply don’t have the time.

This is all irrelevant to whether or not your beliefs are true and how you determined it. You have provided no evidence of either.

 

[ArtieE]

Only materially.

That will never happen because humans could never agree and organize and make it happen.

We need one religion, not 4,200.

We need no religions, only people living by the Golden Rule and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
It's you and all your different religions and cults and beliefs that are the problem.

 

[ArtieE]

According to the Bible, not according to the Baha'i Writings.

Yes, exactly what humanity needs. Religious people with different conflicting holy books all claiming that their writings are the right ones. Still don't manage to see how you are part of the problem?

 

[ArtieE]

I do not know what you mean.

It is a simple question. "What would be the purpose of, the reason for, the meaning of the existence of this god?"
If your particular god exists, for what purpose does it exist? What would be the reason for its existence? What would be the meaning of its existence? Why would it exist to begin with instead of not existing?

 

[PureX]

Because if I said that what is shown in the video below isn't fact or knowledge or truth just "speculation" I would come across as a complete idiot? Are you saying that what is shown in the video is just "speculation"?

Of course it is. And the fact that you can't acknowledge this shows a serious flaw in your supposed reverence for logic and truth.

 

[ArtieE]

Of course it is. And the fact that you can't acknowledge this shows a serious flaw in your supposed reverence for logic and truth.

What is illogical and untruthful about the video? What evidence do you have backing up your claim that the video is not logical and doesn't show the truth? Back up your claim that the video is just "speculation".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Messenger is the only way to know that God exists so it is a Catch-22.

If it really is a Catch-22, then it means it can't be used to justify the existence of God.

We do not assume God exists until we determine that the Messenger represented God.

... but you can't do that without assuming that God exists to send the Messenger. You have to assume your conclusion in order to reach your conclusion, so you don't actually establish that your conclusion is true.

 

[ArtieE]

PureX, just to be 100% sure I haven't misunderstood your position...

We know what happens to unattended vehicles. If all humans disappear from the planet all vehicles would be unattended. Are you trying to say that if we claim that vehicles would look this after a while we are just "speculating"?

 

[Trailblazer]

We need no religions, only people living by the Golden Rule and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
It's you and all your different religions and cults and beliefs that are the problem.

We need more than people living by the Golden Rule. That's old hat.
In case you have not noticed, the whole world is in a state of turmoil.
The Golden Rule is not going to fix that.

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, exactly what humanity needs. Religious people with different conflicting holy books all claiming that their writings are the right ones. Still don't manage to see how you are part of the problem?

No, we do not need people with conflicting holy books, we just need ONE holy book.
The Baha'i Faith is the solution, not the problem.
If people do not LIKE the solution, that's their problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is a simple question. "What would be the purpose of, the reason for, the meaning of the existence of this god?"
If your particular god exists, for what purpose does it exist? What would be the reason for its existence? What would be the meaning of its existence? Why would it exist to begin with instead of not existing?

God just exists. God does not need to have a purpose to exist, but God has a function, which is to maintain the universe and to keep sending Messengers in every new age.

God just is. It is not God who has to think about the purpose of His existence, it is humans who have to think about their purpose, since God had a purpose for creating man.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness. Whoso hath recognized the Day Spring of Divine guidance and entered His holy court hath drawn nigh unto God and attained His Presence, a Presence which is the real Paradise, and of which the loftiest mansions of heaven are but a symbol. Such a man hath attained the knowledge of the station of Him Who is “at the distance of two bows,” Who standeth beyond the Sadratu’l-Muntahá. Whoso hath failed to recognize Him will have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy the earth’s loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted throne.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

 

[Trailblazer]

If it really is a Catch-22, then it means it can't be used to justify the existence of God.

The existence of God does not have to be justified. God just is.
The Catch-22 is that we cannot know that God exists without the Messenger, since He is the evidence that God exists.

... but you can't do that without assuming that God exists to send the Messenger. You have to assume your conclusion in order to reach your conclusion, so you don't actually establish that your conclusion is true.

I meant to say we cannot know that God exists until we determine that the Messenger represented God.
God does not exist to send the Messengers, God sends the Messengers because God exists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The existence of God does not have to be justified. God just is.

You only need to justify God's existence if you want your belief in God to be rational.

Irrational beliefs need no justification at all.

The Catch-22 is that we cannot know that God exists without the Messenger, since He is the evidence that God exists.

But without establishing God, you have no way of establishing that someone is a Messenger of God.

I meant to say we cannot know that God exists until we determine that the Messenger represented God.
God does not exist to send the Messengers, God sends the Messengers because God exists.

Right. And I'm saying that you can't determine that a purported Messenger represented God if you haven't even established that God exists in the first place.

Your argument is circular.

 

[ArtieE]

We need more than people living by the Golden Rule. That's old hat.
In case you have not noticed, the whole world is in a state of turmoil.
The Golden Rule is not going to fix that.

The world wouldn't be in a state of turmoil if we didn't have 4,200 religions including yours and everybody lived according to the Golden Rule and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The world is full of religious people and look at the state it's in. And your solution is more religious people? List of religious populations - Wikipedia

 

[ArtieE]

No, we do not need people with conflicting holy books, we just need ONE holy book.
The Baha'i Faith is the solution, not the problem.
If people do not LIKE the solution, that's their problem.

Your solution to the problem of having conflicting holy books is to introduce another conflicting holy book? A book that even disagrees with the Bible about what faith is? How could any rational person read the Internet Sacred Text Archive at Internet Sacred Text Archive Home and then manage to come up with the idea that what the world needs is yet another religion? As if there aren't enough of them already?

 

[ArtieE]

God just exists.

Why does God just exist?

God does not need to have a purpose to exist

So there is no purpose to God's existence? He exists for no purpose?

but God has a function

And why would God have this function to begin with?

God just is.

And why is it that God just is?

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness. Whoso hath recognized the Day Spring of Divine guidance and entered His holy court hath drawn nigh unto God and attained His Presence, a Presence which is the real Paradise, and of which the loftiest mansions of heaven are but a symbol. Such a man hath attained the knowledge of the station of Him Who is “at the distance of two bows,” Who standeth beyond the Sadratu’l-Muntahá. Whoso hath failed to recognize Him will have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy the earth’s loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted throne.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

There is nothing here explaining the existence of and purpose of and reason for and meaning of the existence of God in the first place... let me give you a hint... if you are going to make up a god at least make up a good reason for why he would exist in the first place...