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Atheists: If God existed would God……

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Pretty convenient. And how do you decide which one are false?
The only ones we know for sure are the ones listed by @Trailblazer. There are a number of figures in the Americas that may or may not be Prophets. We have to use our own individual judgement about those. In India, was there a Prophet called Rama before Krishna? Unknown to us if he was. Our scriptures and also Islamic scriptures say Prophets came to all regions of the world, not just in India and the Middle East. But it is unknown who they are in our authoritative Writings.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You said Krishna is a Messenger of this progressive revelation in Baha'i yet Hindu are anything but monotheist so this clashes a lot with your statement. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I was a hindu and saw this kind of cherrypicking done on my religion, (no offence).
It is complicated about the Hindus. There are a lot of variation in Hindu. There are many beliefs there that are different from each other, and that's fine with them. As a matter of fact the word "Hindu" didn't exist until the British ruled India. the British lumped a lot of disaprate beliefs together and called it all "Hindu". Some Hindus are monotheist, some believe in many Gods, some are atheists.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do so many atheists want to blame God and abdicate responsibility for human choices and actions?

No atheists want to blame God for anything. What would be the point? My 17 year old Bichon Frise has more agency than God (per my beliefs), and he's not even able to hold his bladder until he's outside.

They are, rather, trying to frame their arguments from the point of view of a believer.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
By that time the Hindu Valley civilization already established a polytheism which gave rise to the current Hindu pantheon. If we are talking about what is verifiable or not, contrary to most of the messengers you listed Krishna is one of the less likely to have even existed.
Yes, according to scholars. However our belief that Krishna existed doesn't come from scholarship, but from divine inspiration. No reason for you to believe in Krishna at this point as you don't recognize divine inspiration by our central figures.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You say you agree. Yet my statement directly contradicts your position. You don't see that?
You said:
If God doesn't use his power to do X then X doesn't happen. Ever.
I asked you if you have a point to make about that. Why didn't you answer?

What position do you think I have that contradicts your statement?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No atheists want to blame God for anything.
Not all atheists blame God but most of the atheists I have met on forums blame God for everything... They say that God is omnipotent so God is responsible for everything and of course they are referring to everything bad that happens in this world.

You and a few other atheists here like @Nimos and @HonestJoe are the only atheists I know who do not blame God.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
If God doesn't use his power to do X then X doesn't happen. Ever.
I asked you if you have a point to make about that. Why didn't you answer?
That was the point. You just didn't get it.
What position do you think I have that contradicts your statement?
God has all power to do anything He chooses to do, but if God does not use His power to do x, then God is not responsible for doing x.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Not all atheists blame God but most of the atheists I have met on forums blame God for everything... They say that God is omnipotent so God is responsible for everything and of course they are referring to everything bad that happens in this world.

You and a few other atheists here like @Nimos and @HonestJoe are the only atheists I know who do not blame God.
I don't think any atheists blame God, That would kind of ruin the idea of being an atheist. :D

But you might refer to atheists making an argument, assuming that God exist. And in that case, I would probably blame him for almost everything as well :) Because in that case, he would be the creator and maker of the rules by which we live, that is kind of the overall idea behind a creator God with unlimited power.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think any atheists blame God, That would kind of ruin the idea of being an atheist. :D
That is true because atheists don't believe God exists so they do not have the privilege of blaming God like believers do... :D
But you might refer to atheists making an argument, assuming that God exist. And in that case, I would probably blame him for almost everything as well :) Because in that case, he would be the creator and maker of the rules by which we live, that is kind of the overall idea behind a creator God with unlimited power.
Atheists cannot assume God exists.... they either believe God exists or they don't believe God exists.

It is really like cheating when atheists blame a God they do not believe exists...
If God does not exist God cannot be to blame for anything. ;)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That is completely illogical since God gave man free will and dominion over the earth.
Man is thus responsible for the earth and his own free will choices.
That would make God responsible for our free will, and therefore responsible for the consequences of our free will.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Atheists cannot assume God exists.... they either believe God exists or they don't believe God exists.

It is really like cheating when atheists blame a God they do not believe exists...
If God does not exist God cannot be to blame for anything. ;)
Not if that is the premise of the discussion :)

Given that atheists do not believe in God, there is no other option than to assume it then. So atheists might blame God under that premise, but obviously they wouldn't blame him for anything in their true position :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree. If God intentionally created a situation that could cause a result, then God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs
Intentional or not, we are each responsible for the consequences of our actions that were foreseen or would have been reasonably foreseeable.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Not all atheists blame God but most of the atheists I have met on forums blame God for everything... They say that God is omnipotent so God is responsible for everything and of course they are referring to everything bad that happens in this world.

You and a few other atheists here like @Nimos and @HonestJoe are the only atheists I know who do not blame God.
No, they're saying that IF God were to exist and be omnipotent, THEN he would be responsible for everything.
 

Scolopendra

Member
The only ones we know for sure are the ones listed by @Trailblazer. There are a number of figures in the Americas that may or may not be Prophets. We have to use our own individual judgement about those. In India, was there a Prophet called Rama before Krishna? Unknown to us if he was. Our scriptures and also Islamic scriptures say Prophets came to all regions of the world, not just in India and the Middle East. But it is unknown who they are in our authoritative Writings.
Why do you know those for sure if I may ask?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I get a sense that many Abrahamists - particularly those that lend the existence of their takes on their god the most significance - are somewhat aware of the contradictions that arise when reality as perceived is contrasted with the logical implications of the presumed existence of those versions of deity.

For many or perhaps most the end result is treating god-concepts as a taboo subject matter, which shall only be questioned in carefully controlled social environments. They do not necessarily believe in the literal existence of god as they understand it, but they have learned to balance the desire for intellectual honesty with the social needs and fears of an environment shaped by Abrahamic teachings and expectations. A very real and often underestimated self-inflicted problem.

Sometimes however we find another situation, which may or may not be connected to the motivations for this thread. There are apparently Abrahamists that find beauty and inspiration in a lasting tension that they believe to exist. A conflict between the all-powerful will of the deity that they believe to exist and its simultaneous desire to allow humanity the ability to do as it, the deity, would rather not.

To the best of my ability to understand that perspective, it presents Human Free Will as an undeserved gift of sorts, a presumed real, very vaguely defined ability to go against the wishes of an equally presumed all-powerful omniscient deity with a very human personality. Some people who believe in that scenario seem to think of themselves and by extension the whole of humanity as foolish, pretentious children that often dare to do and favor things without being previously informed by what they understand to be god's will.

An odd scenario, and IMO by no means a realistic one. But I can see that it implies some exotic characteristics for agency and morality that can be appealling for a certain kind of personality.

I would definitely not advise for actively pursuing that perspective; it is very dangerous, and can lead to a huge number of grave pitfalls if one is not lucky or protected by other people. Even if one is lucky, it still wreaks serious, major havoc upon the ability of believers to discern and evaluate aspects of reality.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That is completely illogical because the reason we are responsible is because we have free will.
Do you think a person can be an accessory to a crime?

As I told @lewisnotmiller, most atheists blame God for everything. I only know a few atheists who do not blame God for everything.
I blame your God for nothing: I think he's fictional. I'm just pointing out how the viewpoint you're selling isn't even internally rational.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not if that is the premise of the discussion :)

Given that atheists do not believe in God, there is no other option than to assume it then. So atheists might blame God under that premise, but obviously they wouldn't blame him for anything in their true position :)
There is only one position and you have to choose. Atheists either believe that God either exists or not. If atheists blame God even hypothetically, then they are invoking God's existence...

Atheists try but they cannot have it both ways.
A nonexistent God cannot be to blame for anything because He does not exist. ;)
 
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