Atheists: If God existed would God……

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It isn't, not unless you care.

I don't care about making a religion that works, no.

If you like yours, fine - everybody needs a hobby - but it wouldn't be any skin off my nose if religion died out from lack of interest.

 

[Polymath257]

You have a point, but the most important teaching of the bible imho is that the kingdom of God is within you. Looking externally at creation is a dualistic way of perception, the perceiver and that perceived. But since God is the source of all creation, everything you see is an expression of IT including yourself, so there is no real separation between God and you, except conceptually as a misunderstanding that God and you are totally separate entities.

If you practice meditation as in stilling the conceptualizing mind to realize the underlying unity of all that is, it will provide a new realization the next time you contemplate creation, and that is that at the deepest level of your being, you are that creation....awesome beyond understanding.

Sounds like an ego trip to me.

Once again, you assume a deity exists with certain properties that are not in evidence. when I look within, I find myself. When I meditate, I find silence.

There *is* a unity: as far as I can see, all things are physical.

 

[Polymath257]

It is not a personal opinion, it is a religious belief.

Which is one type of personal opinion.

What is effective communication? How do you know that effective communication has not happened?

Effective communication is communication that gets the message across in a way that is convincing.

That the message is not convincing shows the communication is ineffective (if there is a message, that is).

 

[Polymath257]

A creator deity who created the universe that is not all-powerful is unfathomable to me.
All-powerful means the deity has all power to do what it chooses tdo.

And being a creator only means it has the ability to get things startedi. The two are *very* different.

For example, I can *create* a piece out of wood, but that does not mean I have absolute control over the wood. So I am not all powerful, even for that wood. Sometimes I make mistakes. Sometimes my artistic ability to create exactly what I want.

So, a creator does NOT have to be all powerful.

But even if the deity was not all-powerful we could still observe what it has not done in the world by observing the world and not seeing these things.

And we find that the deity, through omission, is indistinguishable from a non-existent deity. So why would we assume such exists?

 

[Polymath257]

It is much more bold because it necessitates discounting entire civilizations that are based upon these religions as well as all the millions of people who believe in these religions.

No, just discounting the religious ideas of those civilizations. We can still accept the scientific, mathematical, artistic, musical, literary, architectural, and other achievements of those civilizations.

If a religion did not rely upon messengers of prophets, what would it rely upon?

Evidence other than someone reporting what nobody else can verify? And discounting everything else?

Why have a religion at all?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Funny how you interpret that. I have no desire to frighten any atheists.

That is what Bab was saying in that quote.

If a religion did not rely upon messengers of prophets, what would it rely upon?

There are no messengers or prophets in the Eastern religions - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Dao, Confucious, Shinto and Sikhism. A religion should not rely on fakes but on facts that people encounter. This malady exists only in monotheist (mostly Abrahamic) religions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do I?
What about this sort of thing?

Importance of religion by country - Wikipedia

I think that demonstrates quite well how people from poorer countries consider their religion more seriously.


I'm not disputing that Christianity is not declining in the west.
What I dispute is the reason you give.

It's a combination of factors. You are both correct and wrong in a sense.
Education, obviously, is a factor.

Money is too. More specifically, the general "hardship level" of life. I can imagine, and would expect, that those who have it rough will more easily be susceptible to religious belief.

Wealth and education, moreover, tends to go hand in hand. When one is present, the other one is very likely also present. And when both are present and one lives in a secular democracy, chances are rather big that religious belief won't be present, or only very vaguely / superficially, to the point that it might as well not be present and it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Atheists: If God existed would God do #1 or #2, as noted below?

These are two separate questions.

1. If God existed would God communicate directly to everyone?
2. If God existed would God prove that He exists to everyone?

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.
I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

If you answer yes, please explain why you answered yes.
If you answer no, please explain why you answered no.

Thanks, Trailblazer

These seem like silly questions to ask an atheist.

To me, this is like asking, "If aliens existed, what language would they speak?"

Why make an assumption that aliens speak, let alone have mouths, if one has never experienced an alien?

 

[Polymath257]

I believe that God communicated but I am not asserting it as a fact.
That is obvious by the context of the conversation.

If you believe something, you believe it is a fact, right? Otherwise, why would you believe it?

 

[Polymath257]

I can imagine it but I know it does not exist.

Is that a fact?

 

[Polymath257]

We all have something on the line if there is an afterlife.
This life is a mere nothing compared to eternity.

Maybe, maybe not. We evidently cannot know either way. So why assume it to be that way?

maybe the reason the communication hasn't happened is that there is no real consequence if we don't believe. Maybe concerns about the afterlife are simply unfounded fears.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't know. I do not have God's itinerary. Only God knows what God would do, if it is something not recorded in Scriptures.

You don't need to know such. But the statement

'If God is good, knows about humans, has the power to communicate, and there is a consequence to them for not knowing, then everyone would be convinced of the message sent.

That isn't a statement about what God wants or not. it is a question of goodness, ability, consequences leading to communication.

From my perspective, God is not on the hook for anything that happens because God is infallible. God might be responsible for certain things if He created them, but that does not mean He is on the hook. "It's God's fault" is an oxymoron since an infallible God cannot make any mistakes so he cannot be blameworthy.

And the evidence around us shows this isn't the case.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Edit: here is another snippet

In terms of identifying the relationship between education and religion from the negative perspective, previous studies have displayed that education erodes religious beliefs and attitudes in two ways; 1) Through familiarity with science and other cultures, 2) With being exposed to secular viewpoints (Johnson, 1997;​

Naturally, if people's faith is weak in the first place, they will be duped by "scientific atheism" much easier.

..in fact it's part of prophecy that this will happen.
Poor people start off inheriting a stronger faith. They rely on G-d to feed and clothe them. and not feel it is an automatic right to be looked after by society.

I know you think that education, particularly TOE, will make people realise that religion is superstition, but I can assure you that those who have accurate religious knowledge are not affected by scientific discovery. On the contrary .. it makes their faith stronger.

Education is an important part of faith. A broad knowledge in academia is of great value.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that God communicated but I am not asserting it as a fact.

If you believe something, you believe it is a fact, right? Otherwise, why would you believe it?

Polymath, Trailblazer can never be sorted out. She is a bundle of contradictions. She actually means to say that what she believes is not a fact.

 

[muhammad_isa]

More specifically, the general "hardship level" of life. I can imagine, and would expect, that those who have it rough will more easily be susceptible to religious belief.

Susceptible?
Give me poverty any day, if the result of being "alright Jack" is turning away from G-d.

I never do lotteries .. not just because my religion says not to .. but for that very reason. I wouldn't trust myself if I came into money. It is an extremely difficult test.
I have already experienced it in a small way, and I know how it can corrupt.
It is a major weakness of mankind, often leading to wars.

I am from the UK, but I know about the "Bible belt" in US. Thank G-d, for that.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Poor people start off inheriting a stronger faith. They rely on G-d to feed and clothe them.

I guess that's why they remain hungry and poor.

I know you think that education, particularly TOE, will make people realise that religion is superstition

Not "particularly". It's (fundamentalist) theists who are constantly poking evolution so much and making such a big deal about it. Remember that. Really it's a theory like any other.

I'ld say it's more understanding the scientific methodology in general and understanding its rational and empirical underpinnings that will potentially squeeze out tendencies of superstition.

 

[ChristineM]

Naturally, if people's faith is weak in the first place, they will be duped by "scientific atheism" much easier.

..in fact is part of prophecy that this will happen.
Poor people start off inheriting a stronger faith. They rely on G-d to feed and clothe them. and not feel it is an automatic right to be looked after by society.

I know you think that education, particularly TOE, will make people realise that religion is superstition, but I can assure you that those who have accurate religious knowledge are not affected by scientific discovery. On the contrary .. it makes their faith stronger.

Education is an important part of faith. A broad knowledge in academia is of great value.

First a bit of education on what science and atheism are would help considerably.

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I actually know several scientists who are theists, two here on RF.

So you appear to say lack of or deliberate ignorance of education is an important part of faith. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'ld say it's more understanding the scientific methodology in general and understanding its rational and empirical underpinnings that will potentially squeeze out tendencies of superstition.

It's not irrational to believe in G-d, so why should scientific methodology affect a person's faith?

Here in the UK, the NHS has a large number of Muslim Doctors. I know you will claim that they were born Muslim and they know little about their faith..
..but you would be wrong. They have places of prayer in the hospitals that are well attended.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Susceptible?

Yes.

Give me poverty any day, if the result of being "alright Jack" is turning away from G-d.

It's just basic psychology. God is like a father figure who looks after you. Who comforts you and gives you hope by promising eternal bliss after the hardships on earth.
It stands to reason that such ideas will look more attractive as life gets harder and the future looks bleaker and bleaker.

In the other direction, that means that as life gets easier and existential worries are replaced by "when is the annoying chip shortage FINALLY going to be over so I can buy that new Xbox console??? AAARRRRGGGHHH" type worries, it also stands to reason there will be less psychological need to turn to this mental big brother.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's not irrational to believe in G-d,

Disagree.

so why should scientific methodology affect a person's faith?

Because the method demonstrates that when you care about evidence, marvelous discoveries are made.
And if you don't, then not.

Here in the UK, the NHS has a large number of Muslim Doctors.

Great. There's also a large number of christian, jewish, hindu, atheist, etc doctors. What of it?

I know you will claim that they were born Muslim and they know little about their faith..

Why would you think that I would claim that?
Maybe you should not be guessing what I would and wouldn't claim.
For what it's worth, or in case you care, I would not make such claim and I also wouldn't agree to such claim.

They have places of prayer in the hospitals that are well attended.

So?