Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Polymath257]

There are degrees and levels of fiction. But it's all still fiction. And I understand that you disagree, because you are a 'believer' in the fiction of "objective reality": a realm of existence that cannot be experienced or verified by any human, but that you are absolutely certain you know to be so. Same as the theistic 'believer' believes in the fiction of a perfect deity: also a realm of existence that cannot be experienced or verified by any human, but that the theist is absolutely certain they know to be so. (Not all, of course, but many.)

I would say that objective reality is imperfectly experienced by humans and that it is verified by many different processes. And it is quite different than being 'fiction'. The equivalence with religious beliefs is, to me, clearly bogus. We *can* verify the existence of atoms, and of dark matter, and of other galaxies in ways that we simply cannot verify the existence of deities.

 

[nPeace]

Strange a creator God that didn't create the things that cause disease?

What do you mean?
Some pictures that readily come to mind, are these...

What this reveals, is that ills and dangers are due to activities - selfish, careless, greedy, and in some cases, ignorant activities.
So, do you still think it's strange, or does that paint a picture of how diseases are caused.
We have a lot of dirty people living, don't we... and it did not just start yesterday.
God created the people. The people... by their own choice of activities, cause the problems.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, it is the same thread I posted on BUE, only I had nothing even close to the number of responses there as I have had here.... I should have known better but I never seem to learn my lessons.

Yeah. Talk about responses. I can't believe I have only been away, like 4 days, and there are 64 pages already... and I have only reached number 10.

 

[nPeace]

..but G-d doesn't need a mobile phone to communicate.
He is aware of each and every thought we have. He knows each and every one of us better than we know ourselves.

He is able to guide us, or He is able to leave us in darkness due to our own failures to want to listen to truth.

Oh, the games that people play.

God does not need a mobile phone.
Get out of here. That's a good one.
People tend to think only in human terms... as if they are the biggest thing in the universe.
Lest we forget.

Wait. Where are the satellites?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, yeah. Which actually provides more evidence of their human origin. It would be more convincing if God, or Her messengers, provide some extra wisdom that it was not available at the time. Anyway, today it is still the case that religions differ vastly among themselves.

Ciao

- viole

What God reveals is according to what people living at that time of revelation are able to understand and what they are in need of. If God had revealed extra wisdom back in the Bible days people living back then would not have been able to understand it. That is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What God reveals through the Messengers is what humanity needs at the time of revelation. What was needed in past ages is not what is needed in the present age and what will be needed in a future age is not want people are in need of today. We should be concerned with the present and what humanity needs in this age.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[Trailblazer]

Non existent things don't show up as well, also non existent things are not human beings. Hmmm??

That is true, but it does not mean that God is nonexistent just because the Essence of God does not show up.

 

[ppp]

What God reveals is according to what people living at that time of revelation are able to understand and what they are in need of. If God had revealed extra wisdom back in the Bible days people living back then would not have been able to understand it.

If they couldn't understand abolition, suffrage, LGBT rights, or indoor plumbing, then why can I? Am I that much smarter than everybody in the Bible?

Policy -- Sooper Genius

 

[Trailblazer]

A belief can also be based on a guess, they're not mutually exclusive. Describing something as a belief, doesn't ringfence it from critical scrutiny, it is still bound by logic and carries an epistemological burden of proof, else one could believe literally anything. As of course some people do.

That's true, a belief can be a guess or it can be based upon critical scrutiny, but as a belief it cannot be proven so the burden of proof does not apply.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah. Talk about responses. I can't believe I have only been away, like 4 days, and there are 64 pages already... and I have only reached number 10.

Yeah, atheists sure like to talk about the God they do not believe exists.
I doubt you will ever catch up. I have done hardly anything but answer posts on this thread since I started it.

 

[ppp]

That's true, a belief can be a guess or it can be based upon critical scrutiny, but as a belief it cannot be proven so the burden of proof does not apply.

The burden of proof applies even if the belief cannot be proven.

 

[nPeace]

Yeah, atheists sure like to talk about the God they do not believe exists.
I doubt you will ever catch up. I have done hardly anything but answer posts on this thread since I started it.

Catch up! Not even Usain Bolt could catch up. I gave up.
Yup. You are definitely one busy girl. Enjoy.

 

[F1fan]

If you want a debate about the causes of cancer, then perhaps you would like to start another thread.

I understand your evasion. But If you think a God exists, and this God is the creator of humans and all that exists, it is also responsible for diseases, yes? How else can you explain how diseases come into existence in a universe your God created.

 

[Trailblazer]

The burden of proof applies even if the belief cannot be proven.

That is patently illogical as well as being an oxymoron.

 

[Trailblazer]

If they couldn't understand abolition, suffrage, LGBT rights, or indoor plumbing, then why can I? Am I that much smarter than everybody in the Bible?

Policy -- Sooper Genius

No, you are not smarter than them but you are living in the present age so you understand those things that pertain to this age.

 

[F1fan]

That is true, but it does not mean that God is nonexistent just because the Essence of God does not show up.

Sure, but it also means that a Pagan's guess is no better than a Hindu's guess, or no better than your guess, or no better than a Bushman's guess, or anyone's guess who thinks their version of God exists. No one has evidence, and there is nothing offered to objective minds. No one believes a God exist due to facts and a reasoned conclusion.

 

[Trailblazer]

And until you can, it's not true. That is what not true means in logic. We have been over this before. In detail.

I googled what does not true mean in logic? It says that it means false.

false

In logic, false or untrue is the state of possessing negative truth value or a nullary logical connective. In a truth-functional system of propositional logic, it is one of two postulated truth values, along with its negation, truth.

False (logic) - Wikipedia
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What does not true mean to you, that it is unknown between true or false?

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

 

[F1fan]

That's true, a belief can be a guess or it can be based upon critical scrutiny, but as a belief it cannot be proven so the burden of proof does not apply.

This isn't accurate. How do you think juries function? The prosecutor presents facts and evidence that suggests a defendant did a crime. The defense offers counter evidence or reasons the evidence doesn't apply. The jury has to hear the evidence and decide which side they believe. The standard for acquittal is reasonable doubt.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not a matter of caring. It's a matter of challenging claims that are being made in whatever contexts.

So atheists do not care if there is evidence for God?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't claim to know about God. I claim to know about the claims that theists make to and around me about God.

You might not claim to know about God but other atheists do claim to know what God would do if God exists and that is the same as claiming to know about God. It is no different from a believer claiming to know what God does if God exists.

 

[ppp]

I googled what does not true mean in logic? It says that it means false.

That is computer logic where you are creating the actual state. What you are talking I about with yourbindemonstrat d statement is propositional logic where you have no control and are attempting to determine the actual state of things.