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Atheists: If God existed would God……

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So atheists do not care if there is evidence for God?

You just moved the goalposts.
First you were talking about "caring about god".
Now you've moved to "caring about evidence for god".

These are not the same thing.

I can only repeat myself: the reason atheists asks for evidence for gods and other supernatural stuff, is because believers invoke those things in arguments and claims and what-have-you.

When you invoke undemonstrable, undefendable, unsupportable entities in any context - people are going to challenge you on it and point it out.

Why should your god of choice be any different?

And yes, I do care about evidence.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I asked you "What does not true mean to you, that it is unknown between true or false?"

Consider a court case.

The verdict is guilty or "not guilty".
A "not guilty" verdict does not mean "innocent".

It just means that the case couldn't be made to demonstrate guilt.
So they rule "not guilty" based on the case brought before them.

In the same way, I rule god "not guilty" of existing.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It is only poor and weak evidence TO YOU.

That is what atheists cannot understand. They think they can define what is poor and weak evidence as if what they think actually makes the evidence poor and weak. That is egotistical.

No, that's defined by reason. Not by opinion.

What is interesting is that theists who insist on such things, seem perfectly capable of determining the difference between weak and strong evidence just fine when it comes to any other subject then their religious beliefs.

The exact same type of "evidence" that they consider "good enough" for their religious beliefs, they'll never consider "good enough" to believe any other claim.

Case in point: most religions claim the same type of evidence. Yet believers seem to only find it convincing for their own beliefs. And more often then not, that belief also happens to be the belief of their parents. :rolleyes:
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Evolution is a story. Quantum mechanics is a story. Our view of existence is a story. All derived from our experiences,

Evolution is an accepted scientific theory, and an accepted scientific fact, because it is supported by overwhelming objective evidence, from multiple scientific disciplines.

Harry Potter and the bible are stories.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Right so according to this your God also doesn't care about holy wars, people choosing the wrong religion, smart people who want to choose a religion based on good evidence and many other things.

This God you present is incredibly uncaring and seems fine with humans fighting over religion forever? Yet a real God could clear this all up very easily.
I don't know what God cares about, only God knows that. God may or may not care but humans choosing the wrong religion and humans fighting over religion is not God's responsibility...

The real God already cleared all this up when He sent Baha'u'llah as His Representative.
God sent Baha'u'llah to explain the religion is One and end the fighting but if people choose to reject Baha'u'llah that is their choice. They will just have to continue fighting over religion until they wake up and smell the coffee, if they ever do.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I don't think about my spirits, I think about other people. I think that I have an ability to understand atheists because I have had some of the same issues with God but I have worked through them and I also understand why they do not believe in God even though to date I have been unable to make any difference....

However what you say about atheists, suggests the exact opposite.
And when atheists themselves even point it out, you just ignore it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well, there's the fact that theism has changed billions of people's lives for the better

How is that a "fact"?
Sounds like instead, it's just some empty statement which is impossible to verify and which is likely not even true.

How about all the examples of where theism has changed lives for the worse?


Causing them to impact the lives of billions more, for the better. But I guess you can't see any of that.

Not in those numbers, no. Not even by a long shot.
In the vast majority of lives, I'ld say that religion makes no difference at all.
In a lot of other examples (many of whom I witnessed first hand), it had devastating effects.
Devastating in terms of social ties that were cut, families torn apart and in the extreme cases even hundreds of people killed.


All you can see is when theism is abused to justify doing harm, for some reason.

Why is it that when theism causes evil, then it's "theism being abused", but when theism causes good, then it's "theism done right"?

The fact is that you have no standard whatsoever to be making such claims at all.

Well, you might start by being a bit more honest about and open to the real good theism does for humanity. Can you do that?

Such as?
Name me one "good" thing that a theist can do that couldn't be done by an atheist.
Name me one "good" act someone can ONLY engage in due to theistic underpinnings / motviations / beliefs.

On the flip part, I can name you plenty of bad things that can only be done when underpinned by religious beliefs. Burning of witches for example. If you don't hold silly beliefs like "witches are real", then burning them becomes kind of a non-issue.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It would be trivially easy for a god to give everyone evidence of His existence and give clear instructions and knowledge. If God likes to pretend He's not around and stay out of things, than it's analogous to not being there at all. If God likes to be vague, play tricks, be selective with who has privileges, and allow needless suffering caused by these actions, than what does that say about God? He either can't change this or doesn't care to; so He's either evil or incompetent.

Or does not exist.
Essentially what you are saying is that God does not exist unless God does what I WANT God to do, and what you think God should be doing is all an ego projection.

When you say "He either can't change this or doesn't care to; so He's either evil or incompetent" you are like a small child saying that if mommy does not give me a cookie then mommy is evil or incompetent.

It would be trivially easy for a god to give everyone evidence of His existence and give clear instructions and knowledge IF GOD WANTED TO DO THAT.

The real God does whatever He damn well pleases and does nothing He does not choose to do. This is what flies completely over the head of atheists. Atheists think Omnipotent means that God can do anything, and what that means to atheists is that God should be doing everything I expect Him to do - and if God does not do what you expect God to do God is deemed a bad God.

Atheists have no clue what Omnipotence really means. It means that God has all power to do whatever He chooses to do. Baha'u'llah explained what Omnipotence means in a nutshell.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Given what I understand people to mean when they speak of "God," let me put it this way: if He wanted anyone to know He existed, they would know it; and if He did not want anyone to know He existed, they would not.
There is some truth to that but you are leaving out a key point.

Most people are not going to know that God exists unless they look at the evidence for God's existence, but if they are willing to look at the evidence God will assist them in believing.

God guides those who make efforts which implies that those who do not make efforts will not be guided.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

People who rebel against the Signs of God (which are His Messengers) will not be guided, because God does not override free will to MAKE the rebellious people believe in Him.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, there is a lot of evidence against the existence of God based on that premise. For instance, Sean Carrol explains that if God existed, we would not expect the early universe to have such low entropy, because there is absolutely no need for it. If God existed, we would expect that entropy value to be 10 to the 10 to the 120 power greater than it is. Which is to say waaaay different than observed. And adding to my point above, we would also expect to have clear evidence, instructions, knowledge, etc if God existed.
The fact that you and other atheists do not SEE what you would expect to see if God existed only means that you are putting expectations on God - how He should have created the universe and how He should have communicated to humans - and that is only a projection of your ego.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
it is because it fails to meet the burden of proof that it remains unproven. The burden of proof is still there. And if it cannot be proven, it will simply always fail the burden of proof.
Who has the burden of proof to prove to you that God exists?
But you want to believe in spite of the lack of proof. Just like I do NOT want to believe until there is proof. I want to avoid believing falsehoods.
I have evidence that is proof to me. Obviously you don't see the evidence the same way I see it so you will have to withhold belief.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
People tend to think only in human terms
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

JYrZOW4.jpg
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And exactly HOW are these people evidence of God?

What makes you so sure that they *are* messengers?

What evidence convinces you that these people were, in fact, messengers from God?

Yes, your belief has no bearing on whether they were messengers or not. But it would still interesting to know why you concluded that they were, in fact, messengers.

By all accounts I can see, they were humans with ordinary drives, abilities, and perceptions. What convinced you that they were messengers? And then, more specifically, what convinced you they were messengers from a deity?
I went around through the back door. I did not go through the front door. I accepted the Baha'i Faith as a true religion before I ever thought in terms of Baha'u'llah as a Messenger of God. That was over 51 years ago, so it is difficult to remember everything that I was thinking back then. I can only tell you how I think about it now.

Messengers of God were humans with ordinary drives, abilities, and perceptions, but they were more than human because they had a twofold nature, human and divine.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

What makes me think that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God is the entirety of the evidence, and once I accepted that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God then I believed what He wrote about the other Messengers of God.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106


His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online:
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Baha’u’llah did not consider the Bible prophecies or the predictions that He made that came to pass to be evidence that establishes the truth of His claims, but they are evidence to some people.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies that refer to the return of Christ and the promised Messiah. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

Baha'u'llah also predicted many events that later came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
The fact that you and other atheists do not SEE what you would expect to see if God existed only means that you are putting expectations on God - how He should have created the universe and how He should have communicated to humans - and that is only a projection of your ego.
Whereas you making unevidenced assertions to know that a deity exists, and that you know what that deity's expectations are, and that you know what that deity created, and that you know what that deity has communicated to humans, is not the least bit egotistical.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

JYrZOW4.jpg
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yes, but the "he" and the "want" are just ideological projections made up by we humans. So if they are not being fulfilled that's hardly a surprise, is it?
Certainly, it's not a surprise. In fact, it rather says -- to those of us who are atheists -- that this is precisely what we should expect if we are correct. You see, we think everything to do with religion is made up by we humans
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Whereas you making unevidenced assertions to know that a deity exists, and that you know what that deity's expectations are, and that you know what that deity created, and that you know what that deity has communicated to humans, is not the least bit egotistical.
No ego is involved in belief, and in fact that opposite is true. Ego has to be set aside in order to have faith and realize that someone knows more than I do.

Oh, the irony.
 
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