This is a prominent question that is yet to be answered convincingly by atheists. I mean the world can't have come from nothing, can it?
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Atheists: If there's no God, then where did the world come from?
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Twig pentagram
High Priest
This is an appeal to ignorance.
This was uncalled for, but whatever. I know you're going to say because of the big bang etc. etc. But the big bang couldn't have happened by itself. And yes I've read about all of this before so no need to accuse me of being ignorant. I'm just trying to have a civil debate.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
We as humans have limited perceptive abilities so it's impossible to know something that is out of the realm of our reality.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Actually, yes, It could have.
Cause and effect are physical laws that are dependent upon time/space.
We can see this in quantum mechanics. On the scale of atoms and molecules, the usual rules of cause/effect are suspended. The rule of law is replaced by a sort of anarchy or chaos, and things happen spontaneously-for no particular reason.
A typical quantum process is the decay of a radioactive nucleus. If you ask why a given nucleus decayed at one particular moment rather than some other, there is no answer. The event "just happened" at that moment, that's all. You cannot predict these occurrences.
So that even when looking at the physical laws within our own space/time observances, cause/effect on a subatomic level is not necessary. It is only when we reach a level of interaction with time/space that the cause/effect law is demonstrable.
As for the existence of the Singularity. Look at it this way, at one time the Singularity was an infinitely dense speck of potential space, time, energy and matter.
Where did/does it exist?
Space and time came about only a few plank times after the initial expansion. And only within the Singularity. All the known laws that govern space, time, energy and matter exist within the Singularity.
Asking where the Singularity originated from, or if it originated at all is irrelevant as we cannot apply reasoning based on natural laws beyond the Singularity/Universe.
We cannot say any cause is necessary for the existence of the Singularity because the necessity for existence is only a product of natural laws within the Singularity/Universe.
Skwim
Veteran Member
So why the presumption that god is the culprit?
Darkness
Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Something cannot come from nothing. You are correct. However, the invention of God merely pushes the question back a step. You can say, "We as humans have limited perceptive abilities so it's impossible to know something that is out of the realm of our reality," but I could use the same argument for atheism. We do not know how the universe was created without a deity, because we are limited, so we do not have all the answers. You understand my point?
The same can be said about God. Atheists often tend to believe that there is no God because they see that there's no sufficient evidence to prove his existence. You can't prove that something exists using our natural laws when we're inside this universe because our universal laws don't apply to God. Think of it as a bubble that we're inside and that bubble is governed by specific laws which we cannot escape. As for the origin of the Singularity: If we have come to know that it actually was the origin of the universe using our physical laws, then why can't we determine when/if it originated?
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Careful, people might think you're a Deist.
Like I said...
Asking where the Singularity originated from, or if it originated at all is irrelevant as we cannot apply reasoning based on natural laws beyond the Singularity/Universe.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Perhaps we can, but not right now. Current ignorance doesn't necessarily impose eternal ignorance.
And again I ask. So why the presumption that god is the culprit?
Twig pentagram
High Priest
I never accused you of being ignorant.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yeah. It looks like is going to be one long thread.
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
If something can't come from nothing how did God come to be? By what process?
You can't have double standards 1. for the world and 2. for God without destroying something called logic.
Coincidence can only go so far. Everything happens for a reason. Life is just a continuous sequence of events but there must have been a primary event which was the catalyst for the rest.
Skwim
Veteran Member
So it appears, but why must it be a god? And as has been asked, whence god?
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
What evidence do you have to support your statement that everything happens for a reason?
How can you logically rule out coincidence?
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
As I showed earlier, that is not necessarily so.
It cannot be shown that a cause is necessary for the Singularity/Universe, or the Big Bang.
But, that does not "prove" there was not a cause. Only that it cannot be shown to be necessary.
You can have faith that God was that cause. But you cannot "prove" it logically.
The Atheist stance is actually a very reasoned stance.
Doubly so when we place reality out of our realm.