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ATHEISTS ONLY: The 'problem' of Islam

lamplighter

Almighty Tallest
XXXRYN4Kc_400x300.jpg

Someone really ought to tell that guy holding up the top left sign that he isn't at Marvel Comic convention.
Seriously though, you go to a country with free speech people ARE going say things you don't like, get over it. Do I like it when people say "Star Trek is the greatest SciFi of all time!", no, but I will defend their right to say it.
 

frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
XXXRYN4Kc_400x300.jpg

Someone really ought to tell that guy holding up the top left sign that he isn't at Marvel Comic convention.
Seriously though, you go to a country with free speech people ARE going say things you don't like, get over it. Do I like it when people say "Star Trek is the greatest SciFi of all time!", no, but I will defend their right to say it.

To be fair that was probably Babylon 5. But StarTrek Next Generation was good surely?
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
An Islamic majority doesn't necessitate an intolerant state. The United States is mostly Christian, but as a resident, I think its laws (if not its people) are generally quite tolerant (though there are some key examples I would like to change).
 

frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
An Islamic majority doesn't necessitate an intolerant state. The United States is mostly Christian, but as a resident, I think its laws (if not its people) are generally quite tolerant (though there are some key examples I would like to change).

The difference is, that most states that have Islamic majority get non-secular governments, which is inherently intolerant.
 

Smoke

Done here.
An Islamic majority doesn't necessitate an intolerant state.
Maybe not, but a tolerant state with an Islamic majority seems to exist only in theory.

The United States is mostly Christian, but as a resident, I think its laws (if not its people) are generally quite tolerant (though there are some key examples I would like to change).
As a gay man, I'm not that impressed with Christian tolerance in the U.S., either -- though I obviously prefer living here to living in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

I think all religion tends, like nationalism and some other ideas, to be divisive. I'm a Buddhist; he's a Hindu; she's a Jain. I'm American; he's French; she's German. I belong to this community, and you don't.

However, I think the Abrahamic religions, except in their very most liberal expressions, are particularly divisive, dividing people into the Chosen People and the Gentiles, the Saved and the Unsaved, the Elect and the Damned, the House of Islam and the House of War. My religion is the Ultimate Truth, and your religion is lie from Satan. God has revealed his will to us, and disagreement displeases him. In that context, tolerance doesn't just mean letting everyone live his own life according to his own light. It means allowing people to lead others away from God. It means allowing people to bring the judgment of God down upon your community. It means that "mixed" marriages are problematic, because what faith the children are brought up in is an urgent concern. It means, for Christians and Muslims, looking the other way while your children are exposed to ideas that can lead them into everlasting torment. It's difficult for most people who really believe the exclusive claims of the Abrahamic religions to embrace tolerance wholeheartedly. More commonly, they approach it with caution, if not as a pronounced danger.
 

lamplighter

Almighty Tallest
The United States is mostly Christian, but as a resident, I think its laws (if not its people) are generally quite tolerant...
I think that's entirely subjective as to where you live, I've seen allot of intolerance where I live now compared to where I lived in Tampa Bay. I believe people on the east and west coasts of America are more tolerant than people in middle America, as tolerance seems to coincide with the diversity of the community at hand.
 

andys

Andys
The matter discussed earlier in this post regarding who is smarter: theists or atheists raises an interesting question as to what IS the difference, if any; and more importantly, what are the consequences? Since this is an "Atheist Only" blog, I will dare to express my politically incorrect opinions.

I believe what theists conspicuously lack is not so much a matter of intelligence, (although I more than suspect that this attribute is not their shining banner) but rather a somewhat self-imposed deficiency, namely an inability to reason. It is this feature that I believe truly distinguishes them from atheists. I say "self-imposed" because a normally developed adult brain is able to reason—to make logical connections and intuitively deduce certain "obvious" conclusions. Even during childhood the brain's power of reason matures sufficiently to conclude, on its own, that certain things are evidently true or false. For example, the existence of Santa Clause eventually becomes self-evidently false. Our faculty of reason tells us that it is impossible to visit every home on the planet in one evening; that no small bag could hold all the toys for every living child; that reindeer can't fly, and so on.

Presumably, the normally developed brains of theists possess the same powers of reason as atheists, so why are their brains not able to discern what is flagrantly nonsensical? I must conclude, it is an act of self-delusion. Bill Maher jokes that religion is a neurological disorder; but I think he is on to something. (I can already hear the retorts I am about to receive from theists snooping on our private blog: "Oh yeah? It's YOU who has the neurological disorder!")

In case you think I'm simply theist-bashing, I do have a point that leads to the main topic regarding the Muslim invasion.

The inability of theists to see the natural world as it is, without the need for all the hocus pocus, rigid doctrines, and narcissistic egocentricity, makes them not only different, but worse—dangerous. Look at how the "benevolent" Catholic Church treated countless innocent men, women and children, whose terrible crime was simply not conforming to the Church's ideology. That was a theocracy let loose. Well, the warning signs of Islam are staring us all right in the face. The Muslim mandate is at least as ambitious as the Church's during its 6-century reign of terror. Listen to what one Muslim, Eselam, shared with us on this blog:

"our islam is our state, it is our religion, it is our science, it is our life (way of life) and many more".

Alright, so what can we do?

Human rights have become the beacon of every enlightened civilization. Here in Canada, we are erecting a grandiose multi-million dollar museum to sport our high ideals. Granted, recognizing the rights of every human is long overdue. The demise of intolerance is a wonderful achievement in principle, but I truly fear it may contribute to the demise of the very freedom whence it came. In our zeal to be 100% tolerant to everyone, every day, every where...we forget: TOLERANCE MUST BE A TWO-WAY STREET. If it can come back to bite you, maybe it ought to be reexamined? Tolerating the right of someone to live in your country whose fanatical goal is to overthrow it, lock, stock, and barrel, is no longer tolerance—it's suicide.

Solution: The "unspeakable intolerance of all intolerances"—close the door to this group of people on the basis that their "religion" is a legitimate threat to our freedom and way of life. This will send shock waves throughout the world and invite indignant condemnation. But guess what: Your grand kids will thank you for the free democracy they'll enjoy.
 
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frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
Solution: The "unspeakable intolerance of all intolerances"—close the door to this group of people on the basis that their "religion" is a legitimate threat to our freedom and way of life. This will send shock waves throughout the world and invite indignant condemnation. But guess what: Your grand kids will thank you for the free democracy they'll enjoy.

Trouble is, the solution is not that simple. Banning a religion has not worked in history, and will not work today. I think your grandkids might regret it more than you think. Freedom of religion is an inherent part of freedom of expression.
And how do you "close the door" exactly?

I don't know the answer, but I would start with a very clear message... Freedom of speech, and expression come before any religion. The law should not protect religious ideals from words more than it protects any other ideals from words. All existing laws should be enforced, regardless of religion, in employment, in schools, in public places etc. Things like head-dresses and especially veils being allowed in places where for various, usually security, reasons caps, helmets etc are NOT. These concessions only bring resentment.

So while obvious hate-speech or incitement to violence would still be a no-no, ridicule or parody would not. If a motorcyclist must remove his helmet when paying for fuel (which is often the case in the UK), then so should a muslim woman remove her veil. If they can't comply in a particular activity for any reason because they choose to follow some strict code , then they shouldn't participate.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
Until religion finally disappears (which I believe it will), then the only way we can have peace between them in the same land, is to have a completely secular government, and laws.

You're afraid Islam will take over yet you believe religion will finally dissappear and create peace? While I don't know the accuracy of your statement, isn't your assumption like the pot calling the kettle black? Religion extremists and political movements have been using similar claims such as this and look what it's done. This assumption will only make it worse for those ranging in the minority by adding this assumed stigma.

As far as atheism is concerned, I don't think it is a united effort to promoting peace but rather scientific progress. However even the use of science can be used as a means of manipulation. Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for science we'd still be living in fear of superstition but science has also battled eachother over ideologies by skewing legitimate claims to their liking. The Nazi resolution was a good example of that.

So if we want to prevent this conflict from happening.....one must never assume without ample evidence to support the supposed hypothesis.;)

And I am not saying, I as an atheist should have any more rights...just that every group needs to be represented equally.

Ideally I agree but let's not forget those who are deemed insane or treated differently in a court of law due to their mental capacity, circumstances, age, social status, etc.

Shariah law is simply wrong. How many women are active in Shariah courts? How many homosexuals? Law making and judgement can only be passed when all sides are represented.

Well I would hope that a country like Sweden wouldn't let it come to that. I'm not very familiar with the way your government is run, but the Sharia law would be just as contradictory to democracy as leaving a minority of people out...

Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
 
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