Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Yes I do, because I could never understand what he was saying.
I completely agree.
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Yes I do, because I could never understand what he was saying.
I am far from perfect. Besides, I cannot know what other people are going to understand, as all people are different.
Of course we got different results. We are different people with completely different childhood and adulthood backgrounds and different knowledge bases and different ways of thinking so we are going to view the evidence for the Baha'i Faith very differently. Do you really think that I read the Bible and then come to exactly the same conclusions as a Christian does? Not even every Christian comes to the same conclusions despite reading the same Bible. How do you explain that?
You are are wrong if you think I want my religion to be true. Do you really think it is easy being a Baha'i? I ran away from this responsibility for most of my life. Then when I got older I changed my mind and decided it was important to reconcile with God and try to do something with my religion.
I doubt you read what I read about the Baha'i Faith, so how could you come to the same conclusions I came to? But even if we both read from exactly the same sources we would not come to the same conclusions.
Not everyone will recognize the truth despite looking at the same evidence, and in the early days of every new religion only a few people recognize it as true. That is why Jesus said:
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
And why Baha'u'llah said:
“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
You want me to do more work looking back so you will have less work typing a post but I will not be told what to do. If I am not sure of something I am going to ask. I have no memory problems at all, I just don't want to waste time guessing what you were referring to as a claim. Going back and reading previous posts would have just been me trying to figure out what you were referring to.It's very concerning that you still haven't learned that clicking the arrow next to the name in the quote box takes you directly to the post in question. If you had used that you would be able to follow the conversation quite easily.
In any case, it defeats the claim you made in post 2261 that Humans are the best at "acquiring and applying knowledge and skills," as per the definition of intelligence you provided - a claim I demolished in post 2265. In any case, measuring intelligence is difficult because it is such a vague and nebulous concept. is it measured by problem solving ability? The ability to see things from the point of view of others?
And I am growing tired of your claims of not knowing what we are talking about. If you have memory problems, there are any number of ways to deal with it, including the links in each quote box to the post being quoted, which allow you to look back through the conversation. I use them plenty, so can you.
I did not say that I came up with these ideas on my own, I said I learned them from the Baha'i Faith.How amazing that you came up with these beliefs all on your own that just so happened to match the official position of the Baha'i faith!
So you believe that non-human animals can know and worship God? What evidence is there that even indicates that?So what? Doesn't mean it's right. To a lot of people, it's common sense that heavy objects fall faster than light ones. Intuition is a LOUSY way to get the truth.
I never said that humans are better than other animals. FYI, I like animals better than most humans and my entire life revolves around animals, not humans.How utterly arrogant is it to think that humans are better because they have religion?
Looks can be deceiving so it is best to take my word for what I am actually doing because I know myself better than you know me.Well, you seem to change it very often in this thread, from one position to a new one, then back to the old one, then back to the new one... It almost seems as if you hold one position, then claim to have changed it when faced with some difficulty of the first position, then immediately go back to it once you have escaped from the problem. Now, I'm not saying you ARE doing this, but it sure looks an awful lot like it.
The purpose of religion is not to reflect objective truths about the universe.If we are looking for objectively true facts about the universe, then all that is completely irrelevant.
If someone measures the speed of light and gets a result saying it moves a one meter per second, that is not explained away by saying its because he had a different childhood, or any other nonsense like that.
Objective reality is the same for EVERYONE.
Scientific facts are the same for everyone because they can be proven thus there is nothing to dispute.
If we get different results about religion, then it just goes to show that religion does not reflect any objective truths about the universe.
You have the misconception that people believe in a religion because they convinced themselves but that is not the reason. Most people believe in the religion they were raised in and people like me who were raised in no religion investigated the facts surrounding the religion and came to believe it was true based upon those facts.So what? There are people, I'm sure, who do not WANT to be Muslim, but they have so convinced themselves of it that they can't give up their faith. The same for any other religion. It does not mean your beliefs are correct.
It absolutely does work that way with objective facts when they are related to a religion.Again, it does not work like that with objective facts. Thus, your faith is not objectively true.
I have verifiable evidence.And look at you, the same world is available to you that is available to me, yet you have chosen to reject the idea that verifiable evidence is the only way to find objective truth.
Like I have said elsewhere in different words, religion and science are not comparable in how they find truth. Science uses objective only to ascertain an approximate truth. There is inevitably some subjectivity in religion, though there is objective evidence, also. With atheists also often there is an insistence that only the material exists. We reject that perspective. There has long been a split between science and religion, between the material and the spiritual. It started perhaps in the 16th or 17th century. It was started by Christians that were dogmatic in their beliefs about the universe they lived in. We Baha'is seek to heal that split. It is not just Baha'is who seek to heal that split. There are many co-religionists who are going the same.And look at you, the same world is available to you that is available to me, yet you have chosen to reject the idea that verifiable evidence is the only way to find objective truth.
You want me to do more work looking back so you will have less work typing a post but I will not be told what to do. If I am not sure of something I am going to ask. I have no memory problems at all, I just don't want to waste time guessing what you were referring to as a claim. Going back and reading previous posts would have just been me trying to figure out what you were referring to.
If you are tired of my asking what you were referring to me then there is a simple solution -- don't talk to me.
In any case, I already stated my position. I believe humans have rational soul which is what makes them different from other animals. The soul of man allows man to reason at a higher level and think in the abstract and solve problems no other animals can. No animal has the ability to see things from the point of view of others. Some humans don't see things from the point of view of others but they have the capacity.
I did not say that I came up with these ideas on my own, I said I learned them from the Baha'i Faith.
So you believe that non-human animals can know and worship God? What evidence is there that even indicates that?
There is no evidence that any non-human animals believe in God or gods, pray, worship, have any notion of metaphysics, create artifacts with ritual significance, or many other behaviours typical of human significance, or many other behaviours typical of human religion. ...
Religious behavior in animals - Wikipedia
I never said that humans are better than other animals. FYI, I like animals better than most humans and my entire life revolves around animals, not humans.
Looks can be deceiving so it is best to take my word for what I am actually doing because I know myself better than you know me.
The purpose of religion is not to reflect objective truths about the universe.
“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215
If we get different results about religion that is because there mare many different religious beliefs that were revealed by different Messengers in different ages. If everyone became a Baha'i, then we would no longer have disagreement about religion. I believe that will happen in the future.
You have the misconception that people believe in a religion because they convinced themselves but that is not the reason. Most people believe in the religion they were raised in and people like me who were raised in no religion investigated the facts surrounding the religion and came to believe it was true based upon those facts.
It absolutely does work that way with objective facts when they are related to a religion.
I have verifiable evidence.
I do not see you as an opponent so there would be no victory to claim. I told you a long time ago that I am not trying to win a debate because I am not in a debate to win, I am in a discussion to share thoughts and learn.And that would seem perfectly reasonable if I hadn't seen lots of people do the same thing to get their opponents to give up so they could claim victory.
It is not a claim, it is my belief some of which can be supported by science.Yet another unsupported claim. Many of them, actually. And none of them are falsifiable either. How convenient.
No, I learned the Baha'i beliefs about the soul before I became a Baha'i, and then I became a Baha'i and learned more about it.So you became a Baha'i and you learned about this and agreed with it because you were a Baha'i and that's what the faith required.
That has nothing to do with God or praying or worshiping God. The dog thought that he would get Y, what it wanted from the owners, by doing X.I heard a story about a dog who, whenever his owners would go out, would always get one of their shoes and put it on their bed. The owners suspect that one day the dog did this and when the owners came home, the dog associated the two events, essentially believing that placing the shoe on the bed was responsible for the owners coming home. One day when the owners were out for longer than usual, they came home to find every shoe in the house on the bed.
Now, it seems to me that "If I do X, it will result in Y" isn't far off, "If I pray, I will get what I want."
I read it and I did not see anything inconsistent in the article.And did you miss the note in the text that points out that the article is inconsistent with that claim?
No, I do not think human intelligence has anything to do with religion. It is related to the human brain and how it operates.So then you just think religion just makes Humans more intelligent?
No, not as the need arises because I am not changing my mind because of a need. I change my mind because I realized something I had not thought of before or because I learned something new, as I said before.Actions speak louder than words.
If your actions have you flip flopping between two different position as the need arises, then your words saying you aren't doing that will fall on deaf ears.
Whenever I say that Messengers of God are the evidence of God’s existence atheists say “that’s not evidence.”
So if “that’s not evidence” what would be evidence of God’s existence?
If God existed, where would we get the evidence? How would we get it?
As I see it there are only three possibilities:
1. God exists and there is evidence so we should look for the evidence.
2. God exists but there is no evidence so there is nothing to look for.
3. God does not exist and that is why there is no evidence.
I believe (1) God exists and there is evidence, because if there was no evidence God could not hold humans accountable for believing in Him. Why would God expect us to believe He exists and provide no evidence? That would be unfair as well as unreasonable.
How does this statement contradict that God objectively exists?You have claimed that you believe God objectively exists. Your statement would seem to contradict this.
No, the facts about Star Trek are not equivalent to the facts about religion.As I've said before, there are equivalent facts about Star Trek, that doesn't mean Klingons are real.
Been there, done that. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.Care to share it then, this verifiable evidence that proves your religious beliefs are correct?
You would not see it if it was supernatural, you could only see it if it was natural.What would be evidence of anything supernatural?
Would we know what it was if we saw it?
You would not see it if it was supernatural, you could only see it if it was natural.
So the evidence would have to be something natural, something we could see.
Like I have said elsewhere in different words, religion and science are not comparable in how they find truth. Science uses objective only to ascertain an approximate truth. There is inevitably some subjectivity in religion, though there is objective evidence, also. With atheists also often there is an insistence that only the material exists. We reject that perspective. There has long been a split between science and religion, between the material and the spiritual. It started perhaps in the 16th or 17th century. It was started by Christians that were dogmatic in their beliefs about the universe they lived in. We Baha'is seek to heal that split. It is not just Baha'is who seek to heal that split. There are many co-religionists who are going the same.
That has nothing to do with God or praying or worshiping God. The dog thought that he would get Y, what it wanted from the owners, by doing X.
I read it and I did not see anything inconsistent in the article.
No, I do not think human intelligence has anything to do with religion. It is related to the human brain and how it operates.
No, not as the need arises because I am not changing my mind because of a need. I change my mind because I realized something I had not thought of before or because I learned something new, as I said before.
How would you like it if you told me your reason for saying something was X, and I told you no, I don't believe you, I think your reason for saying it is Y?
How does this statement contradict that God objectively exists?
No, the facts about Star Trek are not equivalent to the facts about religion.
Been there, done that. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
This seems like a special pleading fallacy to me. At the very least it is being offered without any evidence, and as such is little more than assumption.You would not see it if it was supernatural,
I cannot disagree with anything you said. Science is consistent whereas religion is notAnd how many times did the dog do it and it didn't work?
That's the difference between religion and science.
With science, you do a thing and it has the same result every single time.
With religion, you do the same thing and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's straight away, and some times it's a long time, and sometimes it's never.
Science is consistent, religion is not.
I brought it up because of what you said in post #2292.Then why, in this discussion about your religious belief that God gave Humans a soul by which to raise them above all other animals, did you even bother bringing it up?
No, not usually.Ah, so once you have changed your mind about something, you don't later change it back to your original point of view?
I do not think like you do, as if I am in a debate to win, so I would never be looking for tactics you might use to get out of positions so I would not know if you had employed any tactics.Depends. Had you seen the same kind of tactic to get out of a position for which there was no rational defense used by others in the past repeatedly?
I cannot disagree with anything you said. Science is consistent whereas religion is not
No, not usually.
I do not think like you do, as if I am in a debate to win, so I would never be looking for tactics you might use to get out of positions so I would not know if you had employed any tactics.
The reason our wires get crossed is because of what you think I mean by what I say which is not what I mean.Trailblazer: I believe God objectively exists!
Also Trailblazer: The purpose of religion is not to reflect objective truths about the universe.
So, if religion isn't here to provide any objective truths, how can you possibly claim that your God objectively exists?
When I said they are not equivalent I was thinking of something entirely different from what you were thinking. I was thinking that rerligion is not equivalent ti a TV series. Do you see the problem?Yes they are.
You've claimed many objectively true facts about the universe as evidence that your religion is correct: Mr B really existed, he went to certain places, he made certain claims, etc.
I can point out many things in Star Trek that are also objectively true. The first manned landing on the moon was launched on a wednesday, for example. And yes, this prophecy was made BEFORE the mission was planned.
So if your factual statements support the untestable parts of your religion, then Star Trek's factual statements sup[poprt the untestable parts of my favorite TV franchise.
I am not going to allow this go go off track again because it only leads to further misunderstandings.So it's your "only verified in my mind" evidence, not REAL verified evidence.