Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

Well, I don't believe that we determine anything about a given god by thinking. But that is just me.

I'm inclined to agree, I have never thought that one can argue something into, or out of, existence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..we can only choose the one choice that a deity knows we will choose.

Why do you keep saying that?
You can choose whatever you like !

You: "No, you can only choose what the deity knows you will choose."

No. You can choose whatever you like, and your choice will happen to be what G-d knows.

 

[KWED]

Urrr .. no
It is WE that fix the choice by choosing it. We are able to make any choice we like.

Ah, I see where you are getting confused.
We fix a choice by choosing, when we choose it.
However, under and infallibly omniscient god, he fixes that choice before we get to make it, by being the future and his inability tone wrong about it.

It is inevitable that we choose SOMEthing. You can choose what you like.

As long as it is the choice that god already knows you will choose.

You say it "must be the choice foreseen by G-d".

Correct.

Of course it must.

So you agree.

He knows what you will freely choose

Yes. And once he knows that, when the time to choose comes, we can only choose that thing.

Nothing sinister about it.

Never claimed it was sinister. It simply means that our impression of free will is an illusion. It makes zero practical difference to our lives, as we live them. The issue is about god holding us responsible for those choices.

What G-d knows does not limit the choice you want to make.

Indeed. It does not limit the range of options available. It merely means that we can only choose one specific one of them. The one that god determined we would choose by knowing we would choose it before we had the opportunity to even see the options.

 

[KWED]

Why do you keep saying that?
You can choose whatever you like !

But you have repeatedly admitted that we must choose the one god already knew we were going to choose.

You can choose whatever you like, and your choice will happen to be what G-d knows.

It's not a coincidence you know. There is a reason why we can only choose that one. God's infallible omniscience.

And then we have the extra problem of Qadr predetermination. Belt and braces, if you like.
Either one negates the principle of free will, but both together make it absolutely undeniable. Even to you!

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon ..we can only choose the one choice that a deity knows we will choose.

Why do you keep saying that?

I don't it's your claim.

you can only choose what the deity knows you will choose."

if all the deity knows is that I have a lot of choices, then that's not omniscience, as any human knows that.

 

[Sheldon]

You can choose whatever you like, and your choice will happen to be what G-d knows.

And this deity knows this beforehand? And I cannot choose anything but the one choice it does not know beforehand, that I will "choose".

Yeah, I still have no other / only one choice to make then. The one that you claim a deity has always known I will make.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ah, I see where you are getting confused.
We fix a choice by choosing, when we choose it.
However, under an infallibly omniscient god, he fixes that choice before we get to make it, by being the future and his inability to be wrong about it..

No, that is where you are wrong.
G-d does not fix anything.

You say "he fixes that choice before we get to make it"..
G-d does nothing of the sort.
You are putting the cart before the horse.

You make your choice. You choose whatever you like.
NOW let's examine whether G-d was right or not..

It is untrue that G-d's foreknowledge limits the choice that we can make. It is a logical fallacy. I have already explained it, but you don't seem to understand the language and math of logic theory.

Repeating over and over again that "we have no choice because we have to choose what G-d knows" without showing us WHY, is meaningless.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's not a coincidence you know. There is a reason why we can only choose that one. God's infallible omniscience..

Don't be ridiculous. You can choose whatever you like.
The fact that your choice will be the one that G-d knows is because you have postulated that G-d can't be wrong.
You say "If G-d can't be wrong" .. which means that G-d knows what you will choose..
..and NOT that you have to choose anything.

 

[Link]

The future has to be unknown and can't always exist, for there to be free choice. This is why Ahlulbayt (a) emphasized that God is not worshipped better then anything about him but belief in Bida (newly innovated will and knowledge).

 

[Sheldon]

Repeating over and over again that "we have no choice because we have to choose what G-d knows" without showing us WHY, is meaningless.

Repeating over and over again that "we have a choice when a G-d knows beforehand what we choose" without showing us WHY, is meaningless.

 

[CG Didymus]

The deity wants us to prove our worthiness by searching for the only evidence that shows that it exists, the Messengers of the deity. A common measure of worthiness is the willingness to believe based upon the evidence the deity provides.

There is nothing illogical about believing based upon the evidence the deity provides. It is logical since there would be no other way to procure evidence unless the deity provided it. Sure, we are asked to have faith that the Messenger really spoke for God but since the Messenger provided us with good evidence to support His claims, what we have is evidence-based faith.

If you hadn't found the Baha'i Faith, do you really think that any other religion offered any kind of evidence that would have convinced you that any of the other messengers were true?

 

[Sheldon]

You can choose whatever you like.

your choice will be the one that G-d knows

 

[muhammad_isa]

Repeating over and over again that "we have a choice when a G-d knows beforehand what we choose" without showing us WHY, is meaningless.

It would be..
Yet you are being dishonest, because you refuse to engage with my explanations.

A fixed future is implied by relativity, yet you still argue that we are not free to choose.

I have repeated many times..

An agent is free to do otherwise, if they can do otherwise if they WANT to do otherwise.

..but you just plough on with your incorrect assertion.
You are arguing that "if a deity knows the one choice we will make, before we make, then the other choices are an illusion"

What sort of an illusion could it be?
How do you envisage that a diety has forced you to make a choice?

I think you well know that it's nonsense, and you get some sort of "kick" out of playing with words.

 

[Sheldon]

you are being dishonest, because you refuse to engage with my explanations.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

A fixed future is implied by relativity, yet you still argue that we are not free to choose.

I have never argued this, straw man fallacy, the belief is yours not mine.

I have repeated many times..

Whilst blindly berating others who repeat their refutation as a "waste of time", ironic that.

you just plough on with your incorrect assertion.

Argument from assertion fallacy.

You are arguing that "if a deity knows the one choice we will make, before we make, then the other choices are an illusion"

Correct.

What sort of an illusion could it be?

The one you just described, where we appear to have multiple choices, but one single choice is already known before we make it.

How do you envisage that a diety has forced you to make a choice?

I don't, i am an atheist, this is not my belief it's yours?

I think you well know that it's nonsense, and you get some sort of "kick" out of playing with words.

Poisoning of the well fallacy. Is no one allowed to disagree with you, and in a public debate forum at that, bizarre.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you hadn't found the Baha'i Faith, do you really think that any other religion offered any kind of evidence that would have convinced you that any of the other messengers were true?

I really have no idea. All I can say is that I was not searching for God or a religion when I found the Baha'i Faith.
I doubt I would have started searching later because I had no interest in God or religion back then and there is no reason to think I would have suddenly started to become interested. To be honest, I am not even interested in God or religion now, I just believe the Baha'i Faith is the truth and that is the only reason I am a Baha'i.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I said: A fixed future is implied by relativity, yet you still argue that we are not free to choose.

I have never argued this..

In effect, you are. I have already said that it makes no difference whether you are a theist or not.

You want your cake and eat it.

You: I agree with the growing block theory
Me: but that is not compatible with relativity
You: conveniently ignore

You don't have to believe in a diety to see the implications of relativity.
Are you scientifically minded?

 

[Sheldon]

I said: A fixed future is implied by relativity, yet you still argue that we are not free to choose.

That's still untrue, you claimed this not me.

In effect, you are. I have already said that it makes no difference whether you are a theist or not.

Also untrue.

You want your cake and eat it.

Hilariously untrue, as that is your position not mine, where you insist that a deity knows what choice I will make, yet the other choices are still somehow available to me.

You: Einstein's relativity and block theory are the same as my claim a deity exists and knows what choices we will make.

Me: Einstein seems not to have noticed this in his own work?

You: conveniently ignore

You don't have to believe in a diety to see the implications of relativity.

It's deity not diety (sic)...and you don't have to believe in mermaids either, what's your point?

Are you scientifically minded?

Does science evidence any deity? The entire scientific world, indeed the entire theistic world, seems to have missed this?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You: Einstein's relativity and block theory are the same as my claim a deity exists and knows what choices we will make.

Me: Einstein seems not to have noticed this in his own work?

You: conveniently ignore

No ... read it again. You must have missed it..

An omniscient deity implies a fixed future.
Einstein's theory of relativity ALSO implies a fixed future.

This means that it is not about deities. It is about the concept of a fixed future.
Einstein believed in a fixed future and NOT IN A DEITY. I never said that he did believe in a particular deity. He was a deist. The reason he believed in a fixed future is because relativity implies it.

Does science evidence any deity?

Oh boy !
You've got deityitas

 

[Sheldon]

An omniscient deity implies a fixed future.

This means that it is not about deities.

Hmmm....What's the title of this thread again?

 

[CG Didymus]

I really have no idea. All I can say is that I was not searching for God or a religion when I found the Baha'i Faith.
I doubt I would have started searching later because I had no interest in God or religion back then and there is no reason to think I would have suddenly started to become interested. To be honest, I am not even interested in God or religion now, I just believe the Baha'i Faith is the truth and that is the only reason I am a Baha'i.

Well, as a Baha'i, you know that the other religions have varied off the original message. I believe they have varied, but not all the time bad, and that I don't know if some of them had an "original" message.

So, I would think that none of them you have impressed as being true.