Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[CG Didymus]

Everything that was predicted in the Bible has come true and the remainder of the prophecies will be fulfilled in due time.

In your opinion.

Nonsense.

How do you know it is nonsense, have you done the necessary research into the Bible prophecies and how they were fulfilled?

Thief in the Night by William Sears

Have you done the necessary research into Bible prophecy? Especially a thorough study of Daniel and Revelation? Or are you taking Bill Sears word for it? Like I said before, if you don't want to talk about prophecy, don't make the claim that it has all been fulfilled. Especially when you have to say some of them will be fulfilled. Christians have been saying that for 2000 years. And like Christians, Baha'is have taken verses, lots of the time just one verse, out of context and called it a "prophecy". Easy to fulfill manufactured prophecy. Like the Jesus birth stories fulfilling one verse in Isaiah. Too easily made up.

the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth.

Is he talking about this world? I think there is a few design flaws.

If you don't understand that doctrine to be equal to any other religious doctrine, you go right ahead and believe you've found the "one, true religion." Like every other believer of every other religion on the planet, throughout history.

Yes, most all believers sure seem to think that theirs is the one true one. And that includes Baha'is who have found ways to make their prophet and their religion superior to the others. And, as I've asked Baha'is before, if this is not true then name one religion or even on sect of one religion, other than your own, that teaches and practices the truth?

Religion peddles in metaphor and make-believe claims.

The other thing that the Baha'i Faith brings is a bunch of laws and moral codes very, very similar to the laws in Islam. And, like other religions with lots of laws, people are required to obey them because, after all, they came from God... Well, actually from a guy that said they came from God. And, of course, he claims he came from God too.

You are wrong about that, dead wrong.

Someone has a thread complaining how Atheists call religious people wrong. No matter who's doing it, I think it is just wrong. And this next one too...

Do you have any logical abilities?

This sounds like a personal attack. And I know you don't like it when people do it to you. Plus, is it the Baha'i thing to do? Isn't there some Baha'i quote about consorting with others with kindness and respect? Or is that only in theory?

 

[lukethethird]

Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?
As we all know God is unevidenced, so atheists: what would be unevidenced evidence of God's existence?

 

[Trailblazer]

And who has done this?

Probably hardly anyone. That is just the ideal. You know how God is, He expects so much of us and none of us can quite measure up.

 

[CG Didymus]

Spiritual truth is the same in all the religions so it never changes

Are things about the spiritual world and what happens after a person dies social laws or spiritual truth? Or... since it can be researched, and even still observed today, people have different beliefs about the spirit world and what happens to them when they die, then those types of spiritual "truths" vary from religion to religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you done the necessary research into Bible prophecy? Especially a thorough study of Daniel and Revelation? Or are you taking Bill Sears word for it?

I don't really care because I do not need the prophecies. The prophecies are just like icing on the cake but the cake was already fine before that.

Like I said before, if you don't want to talk about prophecy, don't make the claim that it has all been fulfilled. Especially when you have to say some of them will be fulfilled. Christians have been saying that for 2000 years. And like Christians, Baha'is have taken verses, lots of the time just one verse, out of context and called it a "prophecy". Easy to fulfill manufactured prophecy. Like the Jesus birth stories fulfilling one verse in Isaiah. Too easily made up.

I was not talking about prophecies, I was just responding to the claim that religion had no predictive power.

Is he talking about this world? I think there is a few design flaws.

Nothing God designs has any flaws but that is a moot point. the point was that we learn and grow spiritually from living in the material world.

Someone has a thread complaining how Atheists call religious people wrong. No matter who's doing it, I think it is just wrong. And this next one too...

This sounds like a personal attack. And I know you don't like it when people do it to you. Plus, is it the Baha'i thing to do? Isn't there some Baha'i quote about consorting with others with kindness and respect? Or is that only in theory?

Look at the context of what I said. There were no personal attacks and no disrespect. I was disagreeing with what was said, that is all.

This is a personal attack:

Thanks for taking over. Heh

It was fun, dropping in on the believers. I think that's as far as I'm going to go, though.

I can only take the ignorance and arrogance so long . . . sometimes you need to bang your head against a wall, but it's probably more fun to stop.

Have a good one!

Please show me where I ever insulted atheists that way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are things about the spiritual world and what happens after a person dies social laws or spiritual truth? Or... since it can be researched, and even still observed today, people have different beliefs about the spirit world and what happens to them when they die, then those types of spiritual "truths" vary from religion to religion.

That is not what I meant by spiritual truths, those are religious beliefs about the afterlife.
Abdu'l-Baha explained what is meant by spiritual things.

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

 

[blü 2]

Probably hardly anyone. That is just the ideal. You know how God is, He expects so much of us and none of us can quite measure up.

Alas, my dear Trailblazer, the record is perfectly clear ─ there is not even one authenticated example of supernatural foreknowledge ─ of which prophecy is a sub-species ─ anywhere in the records of reasoned enquiry.

Indeed, if you're using historical method when looking at old documents, and you find a report of a non-trivial prophecy that comes true, then you know that the document ─ or at least that part of the document ─ was written after the outcome was known. Thus, for example, we know Mark was written after 70 CE because of Mark 13:2.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You might want to explain this to @muhammad_isa who seems to think that science (specifically, relativity) can explain how God can have knowledge of the future..

It is a hypothetical understanding, which I find convincing..

In the first days of our universe’s existence, the Eternal clock saw 144 hours pass. We now know that this quantity of time need not bear similarity to the time lapse measured at another part of the universe. As dwellers within the universe, we estimate the passage of time with clocks found in our particular, local reference frame; clocks such as radioactive dating, geologic placement, and measurements of rates and distances in an expanding universe. It is with these clocks that humanity travels.

Not everybody understands science..
One cannot categorically prove that God exists through science.
However, we can show how it is theoretically possible for an observer to know the future, and that time passes at different rates, depending on reference frames.

Anybody who claims otherwise, does not understand Einstein's theory of relativity..
..and that seems to include you.

 

[samtonga43]

I agree, humans evolved. I am not a Christian.

This sounds like Christians don't believe that humans evolved. Surely someone as logical as you are () cannot believe this...?

I believe in the harmony of science and religion and the supremacy of neither one.

Here is a Christian who agrees with you!

 

[Trailblazer]

This sounds like Christians don't believe that humans evolved. Surely someone as logical as you are () cannot believe this...?

Some Christians believe that humans evolved but many Christians believe that humans were created by God according to what it says in Genesis.

According to this radio talk, four out of ten American Christians believe that humans were created as it is depicted in Genesis story. I suggest you listen to this talk as it is very interesting.

Christians Divided Over Science Of Human Origins

What does this have to do with logic?

 

[Sheldon]

The evolution of the brain didn't start when we evolved into humans.

I never said it did.

Yeah you did?

Somewhere during the process of evolution humans developed a brain and a will so they could think and act for themselves and be responsible for themselves.

Humans didn't develop a brain, the brain had been evolving through many species before humans evolved.

 

[Sheldon]

At what point? Could you explain exactly where you claim a deity inserted this soul?

I would not know at what point. Only God is privy to that knowledge.

You just claimed a deity did this at some point in evolution?

It was at that point during the process of human evolution that humans were given a rational soul by God

I'll give you a clue, you said it happened to humans.

 

[Sheldon]

So how come we are still evolving?

Why wouldn't we be? I believe that humans continue to evolve throughout all time.

So when speciation occurs we won't be humans, and you claimed humans differ from all other animals, so when we evolve into a different animal what happens then?

 

[Sheldon]

They are entirely unevidenced, are not remotely needed or evidenced in all of evolutionary science, and the other claims are just meaningless bare assertions.

I never claimed they are. Religion is not science.

You made the following claims, relating to a scientific theory.

God is responsible for the process of evolution God can intervene at any time.

Again then, your claims are entirely unevidenced, are not remotely needed or evidenced in all of evolutionary science. So you tacking them in there is meaningless.

 

[Sheldon]

Scientific models cannot test religion.

Of course it can if religions make falsifiable claims, or offer data to be examined. Geology demonstrates that the Noah flood myth is errant nonsense,

Science has no predictive power, religion does.

Science absolutely has predictive power, that's an essential requirement of the method. I am not aware of any objective evidence that religions have predictive powers, just claims.

Science cannot explain anything other than why things work in the material world.

It can't breed mermaids either, what's your point?

Science does not know anything about the purpose of physical reality.

Or about Narnia or Hogwarts, go figure.

Science does not know anything about spiritual reality.

Or wizardry.

Science does not know anything about what humans were created for and why we are here.

Humans were not created they evolved.

Science has not demonstrated that religious claims about the nature of reality have zero merit.

Of course it has, geology has demonstrated that the global flood myth is errant nonsense, evolution shows that even as allegory Genesis is errant nonsense. As 2 examples.

Game over.

Hilarious and ironic hubris, given your claims are wrong.

 

[Sheldon]

Not all people are going to believe that the objective evidence for a religion means the same thing. That is logically impossible unless everyone was a clone with the same exact brain.

Firstly you have stated repeatedly that there is no objective evidence for your deity.

Secondly the evidence not being influenced by personal opinion is not just logically possible, that is precisely what objective means.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..evidence not being influenced by personal opinion is not just logically possible, that is precisely what objective means.

ALL evidence is influenced by personal opinion.
You can claim that something is a fact, and I can disagree with it.
You then say that you can prove it with empirical evidence, so it is objective.

..so that's the game you are playing. You are saying that anything that can't be proved by empirical means is subjective.
It is not the case. It is simply a ploy.

 

[Sheldon]

ALL evidence is influenced by personal opinion.

It is an objective fact that the world is not flat. So is the shape of the earth influenced by our subjective opinion? Do you want me to explain the sticks again and the ancient Greeks?

You can claim that something is a fact, and I can disagree with it. You then say that you can prove it with empirical evidence, so it is objective.

Quote me saying that?

..so that's the game you are playing. You are saying that anything that can't be proved by empirical means is subjective.

Nope, literally never said any such thing.

It is not the case. It is simply a ploy.

It's your ploy, using a straw man.

Objectivity is a scale, and a fact is not an absolute.

Objective
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Hmm....

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah you did?

Humans didn't develop a brain, the brain had been evolving through many species before humans evolved.

Yes, I did say that but that was a mistake I made because I was in a hurry when I wrote that. Of course the human brain had been evolving through many species before humans evolved.

What I meant to say is as follows:

Somewhere during the process of evolution God gave humans a rational soul and a will so they could think and act for themselves and be responsible for themselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just claimed a deity did this at some point in evolution?

I'll give you a clue, you said it happened to humans.

I told you I do not know at what point during the process of evolution a deity created the soul.

I said: "I would not know at what point. Only God is privy to that knowledge."