Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

No, there is nothing that He did that could not also have been done by a non-Messenger.
Yes, what He did does count as evidence for Him being a Messenger.

If a non-Messenger could do all those things, then how do you conclude he did anything that serves as evidence he was a messenger?

I mean, if an alien came to Earth with the mission to live among humans and learn what humanity was like, they would do all the same things that I am doing, right? So is that evidence that I am an alien sent to learn about Humans? Of course not.

You can not say that something is evidence supporting a claim if that evidence has another explanation.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a non-Messenger could do all those things, then how do you conclude he did anything that serves as evidence he was a messenger?

I mean, if an alien came to Earth with the mission to live among humans and learn what humanity was like, they would do all the same things that I am doing, right? So is that evidence that I am an alien sent to learn about Humans? Of course not.

You can not say that something is evidence supporting a claim if that evidence has another explanation.

Did you read my edited post?

I do not believe that a non-Messenger could have DONE all the things that Baha'u'llah did, because no man who I do not consider a Messenger was ever able to DO all those things.

No, I do not think there is another explanation for what any Messenger did, except that He was a Messenger of God. e.g., what Jesus and Moses did could not have been done by a non-Messenger.

 

[night912]

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.
What does objective evidence mean?

There is objective evidence for Baha’u’llah because Baha'u'llah was observed by many people and facts were written down. We can examine and evaluate those facts which are contained in the sources I linked to.

That's the bait and switch fallacy. You're arguing that there's evidence for Baha’u’llah and what he did, such as taught a new religion to others, his family lineage etc. Then you switched your argument and turned these evidence into supposed evidence for his religious teachings. Evidence for his existence is not evidence for his claims, like he being a messenger of god. So all your evidence that you presented, is irrelevant to your argument that he is a messenger of god.

 

[Tiberius]

Did you read my edited post?

I do not believe that a non-Messenger could have DONE all the things that Baha'u'llah did, because no man who I do not consider a Messenger was ever able to DO all those things.

No, I do not think there is another explanation for what any Messenger did, except that He was a Messenger of God. e.g., what Jesus and Moses did could not have been done by a non-Messenger.

Okay. What did Mr B do that a non-M could not have done?

Please show me evidence that these things would be impossible for a non-M.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. What did Mr B do that a non-M could not have done?

Those things were listed on my list of the minimum criteria for a Messenger of God. Do you remember that?

Please show me evidence that these things would be impossible for a non-M.

I cannot show that. I can only say that a non-Messenger has never done these things...

But I know you did not consider my list valid so another thing that a non-Messenger cannot do is miracles.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES

 

[Tiberius]

Those things were listed on my list of the minimum criteria for a Messenger of God. Do you remember that?

It's been a long time. Also, I'm sure there are many people watching the thread who weren't around for that. So a repeat of these criteria would be nice.

I cannot show that. I can only say that a non-Messenger has never done these things...

Okay.

Trouble is, anyone can say anything.

I could say that only the best writer in the whole wide world could sit in my chair and write on my computer, but that doesn't actually prove anything about how good a fantasy writer I am, does it?

But I know you did not consider my list valid so another thing that a non-Messenger cannot do is miracles.

Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible.

Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.

Some Answered Questions, p. 100

22: MIRACLES

So just more empty claims. Vague claims of "miracles", but nothing more.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's been a long time. Also, I'm sure there are many people watching the thread who weren't around for that. So a repeat of these criteria would be nice.

Please bear in mind that the following criteria are my criteria which is based upon who I believe were Messengers of God, who met all these criteria. My criteria narrow the playing field and it will eliminate most claimants, since they will fail to meet all the criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

So just more empty claims. Vague claims of "miracles", but nothing more.

They are not just claims, but miracles are not proof to anybody except those who witnessed the miracle.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them."

 

[Tiberius]

Please bear in mind that the following criteria are my criteria which is based upon who I believe were Messengers of God, who met all these criteria. My criteria narrow the playing field and it will eliminate most claimants, since they will fail to meet all the criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

So you are saying that only a messenger from God could do these things?

They are not just claims, but miracles are not proof to anybody except those who witnessed the miracle.

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them."

A common phrase on the internet is, "Pics or it didn't happen."

This applies to claims of miracles as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are saying that only a messenger from God could do these things?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

A common phrase on the internet is, "Pics or it didn't happen."

This applies to claims of miracles as well.

What do you want pictures of? Will a video suffice?

Okay, the execution of the Bab was a miracle that was witnessed by thousands of people, and there are historical accounts of what happened on that day. You can read about it on Wikipedia and then watch the 10 minute video below. Execution of the Báb

 

[samtonga43]

#5209

And we end,
not with a bang,
but a whimper.

from T.S. Eliot

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, that is what I am saying.

And what, exactly, is it that renders these things impossible for non-messengers?

What do you want pictures of? Will a video suffice?

Okay, the execution of the Bab was a miracle that was witnessed by thousands of people, and there are historical accounts of what happened on that day. You can read about it on Wikipedia and then watch the 10 minute video below. Execution of the Báb

Please tell me, what does the second sentence of that Wikipedia article say?

In any case, there are claims of miracles from lots of faiths, and you dismiss them, don't you?

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

This thread is still going strong? Bravo

TB,
You will never convince me that your God and His Messangers exist because there will never be irrefutable evidence. The God story evolved to be that way, it can't be proven or disproven. It's a made up story that changes into whatever it needs to be.

It's an imaginary friend who gives some people power over other people

 

[Trailblazer]

And what, exactly, is it that renders these things impossible for non-messengers?

They did not have a twofold nature, one human and one divine.
They did not receive communication from God.

Please tell me, what does the second sentence of that Wikipedia article say?

The events surrounding his execution have been the subject of controversy among researchers, and are regarded as miraculous by followers of the Baháʼí Faith, who consider him to be a Manifestation of God.[2]

In any case, there are claims of miracles from lots of faiths, and you dismiss them, don't you?

I did not say I dismiss claims of miracles from other faiths, I simply say I don't know if they happened because I am unfamiliar with those other faiths and all their claims. Also, it was not the Messengers who made the claims of miracles, it was other people who wrote about them, so that is a far cry from a Messenger writing about the miracle that He performed or thousands upon thousands of people witnessing that miracle, as in the Execution of the Bab.

 

[Trailblazer]

This thread is still going strong? Bravo

It is still going, but it is not going very strong.

TB,
You will never convince me that your God and His Messangers exist because there will never be irrefutable evidence.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just respond to posts.

The God story evolved to be that way, it can't be proven or disproven.

That is correct, the existence of God can a neither be proven or dis-proven.

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

It is still going, but it is not going very strong.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just respond to posts.

That is correct, the existence of God can a neither be proven or dis-proven.

The best evidence against is to catch religion in a lie. Which is hard to do because there is usually a contingency plan, but it's happening more and more often. Scientific evidence disproving myth.

 

[Trailblazer]

The best evidence against is to catch religion in a lie. Which is hard to do because there is usually a contingency plan, but it's happening more and more often. Scientific evidence disproving myth.

I do not believe in myths. My religion teaches the harmony of science and religion.

 

[Tiberius]

They did not have a twofold nature, one human and one divine.
They did not receive communication from God.

So what? Nothing Mr B did requires that. People can meet all those criteria without having a divine part to themselves.

The events surrounding his execution have been the subject of controversy among researchers, and are regarded as miraculous by followers of the Baháʼí Faith, who consider him to be a Manifestation of God.[2]

SUBJECT OF CONTROVERSY.

So tell me, if there's controversy among researchers, why should I believe your claims about what happened?

And tell me, does the last section of the article describe a plausible explanation about what could have happened, requiring no divine intervention?

I did not say I dismiss claims of miracles from other faiths, I simply say I don't know if they happened because I am unfamiliar with those other faiths and all their claims. Also, it was not the Messengers who made the claims of miracles, it was other people who wrote about them, so that is a far cry from a Messenger writing about the miracle that He performed or thousands upon thousands of people witnessing that miracle, as in the Execution of the Bab.

So you reject other faiths while not really being familiar with them? I thought you once told me that you did your research about religious beliefs before you accepted. How can both of these statements be true?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what? Nothing Mr B did requires that. People can meet all those criteria without having a divine part to themselves.

I don't believe non-messengers can do what Messengers do because they don't have the divine part.

SUBJECT OF CONTROVERSY.

So tell me, if there's controversy among researchers, why should I believe your claims about what happened?

I never said you should believe what I do about what happened and I would not expect that you would unless you were a Baha'i.

And tell me, does the last section of the article describe a plausible explanation about what could have happened, requiring no divine intervention?

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe.

So you reject other faiths while not really being familiar with them? I thought you once told me that you did your research about religious beliefs before you accepted. How can both of these statements be true?

I never said that I rejected other faiths, I was referring to the claimed miracles of other faiths.
No, I did not research other faiths before I became a Baha'i because I had no reason to so do.

 

[night912]

So you reject other faiths while not really being familiar with them? I thought you once told me that you did your research about religious beliefs before you accepted. How can both of these statements be true?

This is the result of someone who was dishonest and thought that the truth could stay hidden.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay. What did Mr B do that a non-M could not have done?

Please show me evidence that these things would be impossible for a non-M.

It's amazing how this thread is still going. I haven't kept up with it, but what is totally nuts is that Christians can claim all sorts of things about Jesus and point to the Bible as proof. But Baha'is don't necessarily have to believe it. And I don't think many do believe the miracles really happened. But the Christian can claim the Jesus walked on water and the empty tomb is proof he rose from the dead... That those things are impossible unless Jesus was the Son of the living God. Except just because that's what his followers claimed that doesn't mean he did them.

Why can't Baha'is just say that they "believe"... They take on "faith". And move on. They can never prove there is a God or that their guy came from God, yet some of them keep trying. Do they have the teachings that will change the world? Then what are those? Or is it necessary for them to first to prove that God is real?