Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

What do you think I said proves to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that is not checkable by others?

How many times have you said that the PROOF you have that Mr B is a messenger from God is not something you can present. All that "Oh, I can only prove it to myself" stuff.

What do you think is the secret thing I am hiding?

No secret. I never said you were keeping some secret. I said you were dishonestly making it look like two things are the same when they are not in order to make it look like I was criticizing things which I have agreed multiple times to accept as fact.

I have accepted the facts about what Mr B said and did and wrote.

I have criticized your claims to have a way to prove that Mr B was a messenger from God that you can't show to anyone else.

You are trying to make it look like my criticisms of your "I can only prove it to myself" are criticism of the facts about what he said and wrote and did. I have made it clear many times that I am not criticising that, and yet you still phrase your posts to make it appear that's what I'm doing. It's unfair, and it's dishonest.

I have said that I was convinced that Baha'u'llah was because of the evidence, the objective facts.
How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

There is nothing in the objective facts that can ONLY be explained by saying Mr B was a legitimate messenger from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not know that you are right. You believe you are right. (As you have said in the past).

This is not about ME being right.....
I know what I believe is true.

 

[Tiberius]

I never formed a hypothesis that fits those facts (Mr B was a messenger from God).

hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+is+a+hypothesis

Yes, you EXPLAIN the objective facts by SUPPOSING that Mr B was a messenger from God.

You are hiding behind wordplay.

I never claimed by beliefs are true, I only ever said that I believe they are true..

That is the weakest argument I've ever seen, and I've been in religious discussions for over 20 years.

I will present my posts however I want to present them. Do I tell you how to present your posts?

You are misrepresenting my position. It's called a strawman.

That argument is not logical. The Baha'i Faith is either true or false. The fact that people will KNOW they are right just as fervently as I KNOW I am right and that they are wrong has nothing to do with what is true or false.

What people believe, be it me or anyone else, does not prove that anything is true.

Then why do you even bother to post if you apparently have no interest in showing others that your beliefs are correct?

I am not claiming to know but I can say I know and you cannot do a thing about it.

Saying you know is claiming you know.

Most people with even a rudimentary understanding of English grasp this concept. Your insistence on hiding behind wordplay like this only serves to show how weak and crumbling your position is.

Your problem is that you rely too much upon what other people think or believe instead of thinking for yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes we can, and you have done so subjectively, and offered a subjective conclusion it is divine in origin, but this claim is not supported by any objective evidence.

My belief is supported by objective evidence that I interpreted subjectively.

 

[Sheldon]

My belief is supported by objective evidence that I interpreted subjectively.

That's a contradictory claim.

 

[lukethethird]

That's a contradictory claim.

Some people appear to be perfectly happy living with cognitive dissonance.

 

[Trailblazer]

How many times have you said that the PROOF you have that Mr B is a messenger from God is not something you can present. All that "Oh, I can only prove it to myself" stuff.

I have said that I cannot prove it to you, you have to prove it to yourself.
I have said that I can tell you what the evidence is, but I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

I asked: What do you think I said proves to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that is not checkable by others?
Can you answer that question?

I have accepted the facts about what Mr B said and did and wrote.

I have criticized your claims to have a way to prove that Mr B was a messenger from God that you can't show to anyone else.

But I never made that claim. I never claimed to be able to prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger from God and that I can't show that to anyone else. I only ever said that I have proven it to myself. I can only tell you how I did that, but that does not mean the method I used will work for anyone else, and that is why I said I can't show it to anyone else. We are all different in how we think and process information so what worked for me will not work for someone else. Not even all Baha'is came to believe for the same reasons.

You are trying to make it look like my criticisms of your "I can only prove it to myself" are criticism of the facts about what he said and wrote and did. I have made it clear many times that I am not criticising that, and yet you still phrase your posts to make it appear that's what I'm doing. It's unfair, and it's dishonest.

I am not trying to make it look like your criticisms of my "I can only prove it to myself" are criticism of the facts about what Baha'u'llah said and wrote and did. I know you are not criticizing the facts.

I am well aware of what your criticisms are about. You need more than these facts. You want some way of proving that Baha'u'llah actually received communication from God, but there is no way that can ever be proven for obvious logical reasons. You have also said that you need some kind test. I told you what the test of a Prophet is but you did not accept that so I asked you to devise a test of your own.

There is nothing in the objective facts that can ONLY be explained by saying Mr B was a legitimate messenger from God.

See, was I right in what I said above about your position or not? I wrote that before I read this last line of your post.

I disagree. I think there are things in the objective facts that can ONLY be explained by saying Baha'u'llah was a legitimate Messenger from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you EXPLAIN the objective facts by SUPPOSING that Mr B was a messenger from God.

You are hiding behind wordplay.

No, that is not what I did. I do not SUPPOSE that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God based upon the objective facts.

I believe that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God based upon His character, His life, the mission that He completed, based upon His Writings, and based upon the religion that was established His name, the Baha'i Faith, and what it teaches. This includes the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi who were appointed as interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings.

That is the weakest argument I've ever seen, and I've been in religious discussions for over 20 years.

It is not an argument, it is a statement of belief. I am not and never have been trying to prove to anyone that my beliefs are true.

You are misrepresenting my position. It's called a strawman.

It cannot be a strawman because I was not representing your position. It was only an "I statement" and a question.

I said: I will present my posts however I want to present them. Do I tell you how to present your posts?

Then why do you even bother to post if you apparently have no interest in showing others that your beliefs are correct?

There are many reasons why I post. For one thing, Baha'u'llah wrote that it is our duty to teach the Cause of God.

“Let your principal concern be to rescue the fallen from the slough of impending extinction, and to help him embrace the ancient Faith of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 316

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

“Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.” Gleanings, p. 339

However, that does not mean Baha'is are supposed to try to convince people that the Baha'i Faith is true. Baha'u'llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself. That means we all have to choose to believe by ourselves.

Even though it is highly unlikely anyone will embrace the Cause of God from what I say, there is always a chance, and if even one person did it would be worth all my time. And who am I to say who might end up believing? I don't know that, only God knows that.

Referring to Baha’u’llah as “Him Whom God shall make manifest” the Bab wrote:

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name… For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Saying you know is claiming you know.

Most people with even a rudimentary understanding of English grasp this concept. Your insistence on hiding behind wordplay like this only serves to show how weak and crumbling your position is.

No, it is not a claim because I am not claiming to know anything. I am saying I know, but that is personal, based upon my own inner certitude. It is not something I can prove to anyone else, which is why I am not claiming it.

I have no position except as God's Servant, working for the Cause of God. As God's Servant no harm can befall me, so whatever people on a forum think I am doing is just like water off a duck's back.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a contradictory claim.

No, not at all.

 

[Tiberius]

I asked: What do you think I said proves to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that is not checkable by others?
Can you answer that question?

Your faulty logic.

But I never made that claim. I never claimed to be able to prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger from God and that I can't show that to anyone else. I only ever said that I have proven it to myself. I can only tell you how I did that, but that does not mean the method I used will work for anyone else, and that is why I said I can't show it to anyone else. We are all different in how we think and process information so what worked for me will not work for someone else. Not even all Baha'is came to believe for the same reasons.

Yeah, if you say that you cannot prove it, you can't turn around and immediately say you have proven it to yourself.

I am not trying to make it look like your criticisms of my "I can only prove it to myself" are criticism of the facts about what Baha'u'llah said and wrote and did. I know you are not criticizing the facts.

You have done it too often for it to be dismissed as accidental. I've called you out on this many times. And yet you still do it.

I am well aware of what your criticisms are about. You need more than these facts. You want some way of proving that Baha'u'llah actually received communication from God, but there is no way that can ever be proven for obvious logical reasons. You have also said that you need some kind test. I told you what the test of a Prophet is but you did not accept that so I asked you to devise a test of your own.

And I did that, but you said that Jesus' claim that prayer can make a mountain literally move didn't count.

I disagree. I think there are things in the objective facts that can ONLY be explained by saying Baha'u'llah was a legitimate Messenger from God.

Okay. Please, tell me what this thing from the objective facts about Mr B is that could only have happened if he was really a messenger from god.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not what I did. I do not SUPPOSE that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God based upon the objective facts.

I believe that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God based upon His character, His life, the mission that He completed, based upon His Writings, and based upon the religion that was established His name, the Baha'i Faith, and what it teaches. This includes the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi who were appointed as interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings.

Hiding behind wordplay again.

It is not an argument, it is a statement of belief. I am not and never have been trying to prove to anyone that my beliefs are true.

Hiding behind wordplay again.

It cannot be a strawman because I was not representing your position. It was only an "I statement" and a question.

I said: I will present my posts however I want to present them. Do I tell you how to present your posts?

You are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

I spoke of the objective facts about Mr B and I also spoke of your conclusion (don't hide behind wordplay) that you reached from it.

I criticised your position.

You then went on to say that you have only ever presented the objective facts, thus attempting to suggesting that I am criticising those objective facts. THAT is a strawman and it is dishonest. And you have done it many times.

Stop it.

There are many reasons why I post. For one thing, Baha'u'llah wrote that it is our duty to teach the Cause of God.

“Let your principal concern be to rescue the fallen from the slough of impending extinction, and to help him embrace the ancient Faith of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 316

“Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.” Gleanings, p. 278

“Unloose your tongues, and proclaim unceasingly His Cause. This shall be better for you than all the treasures of the past and of the future, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.” Gleanings, p. 330

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.” Gleanings, p. 339

However, that does not mean Baha'is are supposed to try to convince people that the Baha'i Faith is true. Baha'u'llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself. That means we all have to choose to believe by ourselves.

Even though it is highly unlikely anyone will embrace the Cause of God from what I say, there is always a chance, and if even one person did it would be worth all my time. And who am I to say who might end up believing? I don't know that, only God knows that.

Why would you expect anyone to listen to a lesson about someone they do not believe is real? (I mean the Bahai God, not Mr B. And don't try to pull anything like, "It's the same God as the Christian God," or anything like that. You know Christians would never buy that.)

Referring to Baha’u’llah as “Him Whom God shall make manifest” the Bab wrote:

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name… For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Yeah, lots of other religions have their disciples and whatnot instructed to go out and spread the word. Once again, Bahai is nothing special.

No, it is not a claim because I am not claiming to know anything. I am saying I know, but that is personal, based upon my own inner certitude. It is not something I can prove to anyone else, which is why I am not claiming it.

Hiding behind wordplay again.

I have no position except as God's Servant, working for the Cause of God. As God's Servant no harm can befall me, so whatever people on a forum think I am doing is just like water off a duck's back.

lol, whatever. I suppose if there's a car careening down the street towards you, a magical wall will just pop up to protect you from harm, huh?

 

[Trailblazer]

Your faulty logic.

That is only your personal opinion. Just go ahead and try to prove that my logic is faulty.

Besides, that is not an answer to my question.
I asked: What do you think I said proves to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that is not checkable by others?

Yeah, if you say that you cannot prove it, you can't turn around and immediately say you have proven it to yourself.

This is really not that difficult for anyone who can read and think logically.
I cannot prove it to other people but I can prove it to myself.

You have done it too often for it to be dismissed as accidental. I've called you out on this many times. And yet you still do it.

I have never done it. I have never been deceptive an tried to make something look like something it wasn't. This is just how you interpret what I have sais, but it is not coming from me, it is what you imagine.

And I did that, but you said that Jesus' claim that prayer can make a mountain literally move didn't count.

I told you that is not a rational or reasonable test and why that is the case and besides, it is not a test for Baha'u'llah.

Okay. Please, tell me what this thing from the objective facts about Mr B is that could only have happened if he was really a messenger from god.

How He received His revelations.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred.........A certain Muḥammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By. pp. 137-138

 

[Tiberius]

That is only your personal opinion. Just go ahead and try to prove that my logic is faulty.

It's not my opinion.

Besides, that is not an answer to my question.
I asked: What do you think I said proves to me that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God that is not checkable by others?

Yes, it's an answer.

This is really not that difficult for anyone who can read and think logically.
I cannot prove it to other people but I can prove it to myself.

And since you can not share it with others, you can not eliminate the possibility that you are wrong due to some subconscious bias. Hence, it is not proof.

I have never done it. I have never been deceptive an tried to make something look like something it wasn't. This is just how you interpret what I have sais, but it is not coming from me, it is what you imagine.

Yes you have. I have called you out on it many times. You deliberately bring up issues that are very close to what I am arguing but not exactly what I am arguing so you can misrepresent my position.

I told you that is not a rational or reasonable test and why that is the case and besides, it is not a test for Baha'u'llah.

Yeah, you've got convenient excuse to discount anything that would actually be falsifiable. What a surprise.

How He received His revelations.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred.........A certain Muḥammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By. pp. 137-138

Please show me how you determined that prolific output can ONLY be the result of divine inspiration, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

I spoke of the objective facts about Mr B and I also spoke of your conclusion (don't hide behind wordplay) that you reached from it.

I criticised your position.

You then went on to say that you have only ever presented the objective facts, thus attempting to suggesting that I am criticising those objective facts. THAT is a strawman and it is dishonest. And you have done it many times.

Stop it.

That is a big fat straw man. I never suggested that you were criticizing those objective facts.
You just cannot admit you are wrong. It is pure unadulterated ego.
Show me where I ever suggested that or don't say it again.

How many times do I have to repeat myself, 10, 20, 30, or 40 times?

Why would you expect anyone to listen to a lesson about someone they do not believe is real?

Did I say I expected that? No, I did not say I expected that.

I said: Even though it is highly unlikely anyone will embrace the Cause of God from what I say, there is always a chance, and if even one person did it would be worth all my time. And who am I to say who might end up believing? I don't know that, only God knows that.

 

[Tiberius]

That is a big fat straw man. I never suggested that you were criticizing those objective facts.

Then WHY DO YOU EVEN BRING IT UP IF IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING?

Show me where I ever suggested that or don't say it again.

Every single time I have claimed you have done it, I have quoted the relevant part of your post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then WHY DO YOU EVEN BRING IT UP IF IT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING?

Because you will not let go of it.

Every single time I have claimed you have done it, I have quoted the relevant part of your post.

You just believe I have done what I have not done, but why does it even matter what you think I said before? That was then and now is now. I have stated my position clearly enough. I know you do not dispute the objective facts about Baha'u'llah. What you dispute is that they mean He was a Messenger of God. Is that correct? Answer the question and that should resolve the issue.

 

[Trailblazer]

And since you can not share it with others, you can not eliminate the possibility that you are wrong due to some subconscious bias. Hence, it is not proof.

If you had any logical abilities you would know that even if I could share it with others that would not prove one single thing. I cannot make you reason logically, you either have the ability or you do not.

Every human has a subconscious and a bias. That includes you.
However, everyone is also biased in their conscious mind. It is your own personal bias that prevents you from recognizing the truth about Baha'u'llah. It does not matter if it is conscious or subconscious, it is what you are thinking. It does not matter if a person has a bias as long as they are biased towards recognizing the truth.

Please show me how you determined that prolific output can ONLY be the result of divine inspiration, or whatever you want to call it.

It is just my personal opinion based upon my own reasoning. It could be the result of something else but since I already know that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God, I believe it came from God.

 

[Tiberius]

Because you will not let go of it.

How am I not letting go of something if you bring it up out of nowhere?

I know you do not dispute the objective facts about Baha'u'llah. What you dispute is that they mean He was a Messenger of God.

So if you know that your interpretation of those facts is where my dispute lies, why do you constantly try to bring it back to the objective facts themselves instead of your interpretation of them?

 

[Trailblazer]

So if you know that your interpretation of those facts is where my dispute lies, why do you constantly try to bring it back to the objective facts themselves instead of your interpretation of them?

It is the objective facts themselves AND my interpretation of them.

 

[Tiberius]

If you had any logical abilities you would know that even if I could share it with others that would not prove one single thing. I cannot make you reason logically, you either have the ability or you do not.

Absolute garbage. There are plenty of ideas based on objective facts which, when shared, can be checked. The particle/wave duality of light, for example.

Every human has a subconscious and a bias. That includes you.

Then you agree with me? You could have some subconscious bias which is leading you to an incorrect conclusion?

And this is what we use PEER REVIEW for. If I come up with an idea that is being influenced by some subconscious bias of mine, I can get someone to check it. After all, since they probably don't have the same subconscious biases that I do, they will be able to see where I made the mistake.

This is a very basic concept, and it works with ALL examination of ideas, so don't try to pretend it's a science only thing. It's not.

It is just my personal opinion based upon my own reasoning. It could be the result of something else but since I already know that Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God, I believe it came from God.

So circular reasoning it is. "Mr B could only have been that prolific if he was divinely inspired, therefore he must have been a messenger from God. Since he was a messenger from God, he would have been divinely inspired, and that explains why he was so prolific."