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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Isn't this the crux of the matter concerning what evidence can convince a skeptic that a god exists? You seem to think that there are multiple ways to view evidence. which is correct, but you also think that they are all equally valid, that there is no such thing that one is correct and the others not. That's false equivalency.

And that's the difference between the theists here and the atheists. The theists find the evidence offered inadequate to support theism. They simply have a different way of understanding what evidence implies and what it does not. You offer the writings of Baha'u'llah as evidence that he speaks for a god. You look at those words, that life and the history of the Baha'i religion, and see that a compelling indicator that a god must have had a hand in writing them. But the atheists look at those things and don't see anything that seems superhuman.

The Christians make the same claims for their religion. They tell us that scripture is proof of God, but experienced critical thinkers all agree that it is merely proof that somebody wrote those words, because they seem human. Likewise with the life of Jesus - "surely this was the Son of God." Uh, no. I was a the life of an itinerant religious fundamentalist who said nothing that human beings don't say. Remove the miracles, and this was an undistinguished life while it was being lived, later promoted into a religion by others after Jesus was gone.

None of this is convincing, which frustrates the theists, who see the atheist's bar for evidence too high, while the atheist sees the believer's bar set too low.

Also, I don't accept the idea that there are two different criteria for truth, and one for what we can experience and one for the kinds of things that people believe by faith. The claims that you can't use science, and don't expect evidence is really telling me that what is believed if probably false, and even if was a correct guess, that's all it was. You call it false equivalence t have a single standard, I call it special pleading to have a double standard for these.

But you are correct that for as long as the skeptics are going to use the same criteria for truth in all areas where truth claims are made, you cannot reach them by asking them to relax their standards, or by calling it the logical fallacy of false equivalence when they won't.

***********

Here's something I found a few years ago, and have modified a bit since. If you'd like to see the original video, try this

If you'd rather read a transcript of that video, try this: The Theist's Guide to Converting Atheists - Daylight Atheism (patheos.com)

Frankly, most of what is called convincing here wouldn't convince me. I offer this list because everything offered in this thread as evidence of a god fits in the unconvincing category. That's apparent by the fact that you have convinced no atheist to agree with you.

Most of the following falls below my bar for convincing evidence of a god or a true religion, since most of it could be accomplished by advanced alien species (as Clarke said, any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to be magic). I wouldn't separate conclusive and highly suggestive evidence, and I might take out the word highly, leaving just two categories: suggestive and unconvincing.

Look at where the evidence you and the other theists here offer falls on this scale. You might put your religion's writings in number [6], since they convinced you to believe, but I don't see anything in those words that a man or men couldn't have written unaided:


THINGS THAT WOULD CONVINCE AN ATHEIST THAT A PARTICULAR RELIGION IS THE TRUE RELIGION.

CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE

[1] Any direct, irrefutable manifestation of the divine, such as being spoken to by the deity in the presence of multiple, reliable witnesses

[2] Bona fide miraculous occurrences, especially if brought about through prayer.

If glowing auras of holy light sometimes appeared around believers to protect them from harm, or atheists and only atheists were regularly struck by lightning, or only patients prayed for by members of a specific religion in a repeatable, placebo-controlled, prospective, double blinded study recovered better

[3] High quality prophecy fulfilled.

Criteria for a true prophecy http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Criteria_for_a_true_prophecy
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.

2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical foreknowledge definitionally can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.

3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.

4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.

5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. Ideas of the time don't count

HIGHLY SUGGESTIVE EVIDENCE

[4] High quality scientific knowledge in holy books that was not available at the time.

The knowledge must be in detail and be about something counterintuitive like relativity or quantum mechanics, not merely mentioning in the broadest strokes of atoms, heliocentrism or evolution:" My disciples, I say unto thee that energy is mass times the speed of light multiplied unto itself." Of course, this could have come from a prior alien visitation.

[5] Aliens who believe the exact same religion

[Hidingfromyou offered this: "Number [5] is problematic and leads to possible deception by aliens who want your resources. If I were a conquering band of aliens with very limited tech, I'd pretend to engage in the major religions of the planet I was about quash." I thought that she was right about invading aliens, but not aliens that we found and visited. If we found them, and I were certain that they had had Christian bibles for centuries, I'd be convinced.]

[6] A genuinely flawless and consistent holy book. From Ingersoll: "It should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce."

[7] A religion without internal disputes of factions

[8] A religion whose followers have never committed or taken part in atrocities

NOT CONVINCING

[9] Pseudo-miracles such as alleged miracle cures, speaking in tongues or other, or seeing the deity in a piece of toast.

[10] Any subjective experience such as people's conversion stories, reports of near-death experiences, or reports of messages from the deity

[11] Pseudo-science such as "intelligent design" and creationism

[12] Bible Code or similar numerological feats

[13] Citing scripture authoritatively
This post is very long so to respond to it properly it will take some time. As soon as I get a break in service I will make a stab at it. :)
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I have presented facts that surround the Life and Mission of Baha'u'llah as evidence of my beliefs.

No, you have made unevidenced claims, facts by definition contain knowledge based on reality, you've presented nothing close to this.

These are historical facts.

I am dubious about this claim as well, but even were they credible historical facts, they axiomatically cannot evidence a deity or anything supernatural.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, you have made unevidenced claims, facts by definition contain knowledge based on reality, you've presented nothing close to this.
What is reality?

Do you have to disprove other people's belief or non-belief?
I am dubious about this claim as well, but even were they credible historical facts, they axiomatically cannot evidence a deity or anything supernatural.
They are not proof but they are evidence. There is no proof of God, only evidence.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I guess you like to provide free advertising for the Baha'i Faith by asking me to post the evidence over and over again, after I have already posted it,

You have not posted any such thing.

Below is a list of the primary categories of evidence that support the claims of Baha'u'llah.

1. His character (His qualities).

That's a subjective claim, and not objective evidence for a deity.

2. His Revelation

Oh dear, how does this evidence a deity, and do please try to be less vague?

3. His Writings

I have written many things, am I a deity? dear oh dear....

4. Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies

All the CLAIMS for prophesies in the bible, you cannot support your claim for a deity with other unevidenced claims.

5. Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass.

I don't believe you, but even were this axiomatically true, how does this evidence a deity?

I do not ASSERT that a deity exists

Oh behave, that ship sailed some time ago, and you disrespect both me and yourself with this absurd claim, read a dictionary for goodness sake.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I am dubious about this claim as well, but even were they credible historical facts, they axiomatically cannot evidence a deity or anything supernatural.

They are not proof but they are evidence.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

There is no proof of God, only evidence.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just how many dishonest straw man claims that I have mentioned, let alone asked for proof are you going to post?

What is reality?

You don't know? Wow!

reality
noun


1. The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

You do know that you can Google word definitions right?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You don't know? Wow!

reality
noun


1. The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

You do know that you can Google word definitions right?
It is not me who does not know what reality is, it is you. :rolleyes:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You have not posted any such thing.
Oh behave, that ship sailed some time ago, and you disrespect both me and yourself with this absurd claim, read a dictionary for goodness sake.
Please Quote Me asserting that a deity exists.
I never asserted that a deity exists just because I said I believe that a deity exists, Get a dictionary.

scarecrow-strawman-rice-field-260nw-1376752724.jpg
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
There is no objective evidence for a deity.

The sky is blue, clouds are white, but sometimes grey, the sea is salty.....since we are stating the obvious. :rolleyes:

You have no idea how ridiculous you sound when you request that kind of evidence.

You are correct, though I suspect you have no idea how ridiculous you sound when make unevidenced claims as if they are esoteric truths.

Carry on.

Thanks, not that I need your validation of course.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The sky is blue, clouds are white, but sometimes grey, the sea is salty.....since we are stating the obvious. :rolleyes:
There is a lot more to reality than what you can see with your physical eyes...
There is a physical reality and there is a spiritual reality.

That is NOT a claim, it is a belief.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then why ask me what it was?
Because I wanted to know what you think reality is.
What's more bizarre is you ignored my response giving the commonly understood definition, and made YET ANOTHER UNEVIDENCED CLAIM, implying that the the dictionary is wrong?
I make no claims. I only state my beliefs. I cannot prove that my beliefs are true which is why I do not claim they are true.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member

Sheldon

Veteran Member
What is reality?

reality
noun


1. The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

It is not me who does not know what reality is, it is you.

Then why ask me what it was?

Because I wanted to know what you think reality is.

Even by your standards of sophistry and semantics, that is hilarious.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Assert
verb

1. state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.

Dear oh dear....



o_O:eek::D:confused:

Hahahahahhhaha, uh.....oh oh, awww damn it, irony overload....:rolleyes::oops:
Are you on this forum for a constructive dialogue or just to play around with definitions in an effort to prove you are right and I am wrong?
I don't have time for the latter or any interest in it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Man ipulate.

By man in thesis one agreed in a brotherhood of men.

Science. Satanism versus natural creation.

To state as a human I am with God and natural was attacked harmed.

What I get annoyed with is man identifying self wrong hence ego lied. To then want self to be right in the same topic.

Hence to be right in science as expressed by man it is varied.

Invention that causes the least change is correct human advice.

Science that assisted humanity.

Then there is science that tried to destroy by one inferred status blasting or big bang.

The cosmic Satan theist was a proven liar and still is lying.

Laws don't exist in reality.

Natural already balanced all states.

Hence teachers had to establish a teaching to quote why one title is inferred. Inference is not status.

And it was what God owned.

Cold evolved life support. God science said owned evolution.

Why it was applied only as a Human teaching and never was it any thesis.

Actually.
And the historic advice was known and advised to men and women who received gods messages in visions.

By the spirit causes gases burnt gases that cooled.

Hence it owned correct human reasoning but lacked the correct human teachers. Just as you were told.

Only spiritual humans communed spiritually with God and nature. Status any truth for human family.

In natural life are rhe real science answers. As you have to be human first to think a story theory.

Theists pretended laws for machine reaction theories only. Why they lied.

As the laws related to what conditions their designed machine should be built to apply for a reaction.

Just a machine.

In life all things inferred God only as theists with machines satanisms had big bang blasted combusted our earth life.

Actually.

As no big bang in relativity existed as natural form.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They're not mutually exclusive, unless one is illiterate, or being deliberately obtuse.
The words and meanings are mutually exclusive by definition unless one tries to conflate them.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Assert
verb

1. state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.

Dear oh dear....



o_O:eek::D:confused:

Hahahahahhhaha, uh.....oh oh, awww damn it, irony overload....:rolleyes::oops:
I believe that a deity exists is not an assertion that a deity exists, not by any stretch of the imagination. :rolleyes:
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
It doesn't offend me, but it is bull****.

No, it's not. It's true.

I can claim that I can turn into an eagle, but unless I present evidence to support it, it makes no difference.

A world where I can't turn into an eagle is no different to a world where I CAN turn into an eagle but never provide any evidence for it.

Likewise, a world where you have evidence that Mr B was specifically referring to nuclear processes but refuse to share that evidence for whatever reason is no different to a world where Mr B had no idea about nuclear processes.

So, no, it's not bull****.
 
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