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Atheists: what would it take?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Then what type of evidence do you propose?

The whole point of evidence is that it helps to convince a skeptic. Otherwise it is simply confirmation bias, which humans are very prone to.

For example, if a scientist is skeptical about the existence of the top quark, she can look at the data, look over the theory, and, if not convinced, say specifically what is missing that would help to convince her. Then, the scientific community will perform that test and see what happens.

If, instead, there is no way to help to convince a skeptic, why should anyone believe it?

I don't propose anything.
It does not bother me that skeptics cannot be convinced. That is their problem. If they want to treat God like an energy or a physical object for study instead of listening to God about how He is to be found, they probably don't want to find God.

Belief comes *after* evidence, not before.

Science can be wrong, but it self-corrects. That is why testing is so important. That is what keeps science honest. Scientists *know* they can be wrong and want to determine what is right. So they are skeptical and test every aspect of every idea they have. Any scientist can question the methods and try to duplicate the results of any other scientist. Any scientist can propose a new idea *if* they can show how to test it.

Belief comes after evidence and confirmation of belief comes after believing.

In other words, all you have is confirmation bias. Sorry, that isn't good enough. And it *shouldn't* be good enough.

How do you determine the difference between ideas that are from God and those that are not?

Confirmation is not confirmation bias.
For me as a Christian it is easy to look at an idea and recognise if it is from the Bible God.
It is easy to see the effects of various religions and atheism on certain countries also.
It is easy to look back in history and see the Christian influences in various peoples' lives and in what they have done with their lives.

Any in a double-blind study where nobody that talked to the patient knew this information?

Nope.

All I have is what I find on the internet.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

Near-death experiences? Results of the world's largest medical study of the human mind and consciousness at time of death

How would it? We can only go on what we can test and we cannot test those past events (unless you can figure out a way to do so).

Which ones have been verified? Are they done in a double blind situation?

They are done the way they are done. Most studies I imagine are interviews with patients who have had NDEs and possible follow up verification checks of what is revealed in the interviews.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Near-death experiences? Results of the world's largest medical study of the human mind and consciousness at time of death
Oxford university did many studies over the years.
I found this interesting:

Near-death experiences (NDEs) share many common elements worldwide, indicating that they originate in phenomena that are independent of culture. They also have many elements unique to the individual experiencers and their cultures, demonstrating a symbiotic relationship between experience and belief. There are numerous examples worldwide of religious beliefs originating in NDEs and other extraordinary experiences. This is in contradiction to widely accepted notions that all experiences and beliefs are generated entirely by culture or language. Such paradigms not only fail to explain the origins of religious beliefs or the nature of related experiences but also fail to take seriously the testimonies of their sources. Near-death experiences provide perfectly rational grounds for beliefs that the soul can leave the body, and that it can survive death and join spirits of the dead in another world. As such, the phenomenon helps to demonstrate the cross-cultural process of reasoning based on evidence.
Exploring Near-Death Experiences across Cultures | Near-Death Experience in Indigenous Religions | Oxford Academic (oup.com)
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh! There is your problem!!! You create a definition that suits your beliefs and ignores the evidence. Not honest, I would say.

Sorry, but the Bible alone is no more evidence of Yahweh than the Iliad is evidence of Zeus and Athena.

You have to treat ancient manuscripts with skepticism.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
Sorry, but the Bible alone is no more evidence of Yahweh than the Iliad is evidence of Zeus and Athena.

You have to treat ancient manuscripts with skepticism.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Please don’t try to play this game with me. I can respond and I am not l;ost for words. I unfortunately do not always have the time to respond in much detail all the time.

Many doubt the historical reliability of the Old (and New) Testament. Nothing new. Some objections are often just silly as if they are dealing with fools.

Firstly, the New Testament (Jesus and other authors) written years later supports it. That is a major argument which cannot be wiped off the table and that alone is enough for me already.

For example, the Apostle Paul wrote, . . . from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3).

Jesus and the apostolic writers of the New Testament consistently taught or assumed the historical reliability of the Old Testament. This includes everything from God’s creation of the world to the patriarchs, to Moses, to the conquest and occupation of the land, to the period of the kings and prophets, and to the Babylonian exile and restoration, and points along the way.

There is, however, now also substantial external ancient and Near Eastern historical and archaeological backing for a lot of it as well.

And yes, much of what the Old Testament presents as historical has no direct confirmation in external sources. That is not proof that it did not happen, though.

Anyway, one could logically not expect, for example, that we would find the person of Abraham, for example, in all the textual or archaeological records of the ancient Near East. That would not be a rational expectation.

But we can show that his way of life is plausible for the time and place in which the story is set. Many ancient documents, confirm the sequence and dating of many of the kings of Israel and Judah, for example.

Most scepticism about Old Testament is, therefore, misplaced and often aggressively so.

As I have said, there are much external evidence for much of the events mentioned in the OT. Pharaoh Merneptah’s victory stele (ca. 1209 BC, perhaps around the time of the judge Deborah), for example, offers external verifiable evidence of the existence of a people called “Israel” in the hill country of Palestine in his day. There are many, many more examples to be seen in the British Museum in London for the whole world to see. That cannot be denied.

Lo and behold, there are still some who deny it, ignore it, or somehow reinterpret it because it does not fit with their scepticism. Historical “minimalists” consider the Old Testament to be fictional literature. The minimalist agenda will eventually defeat itself because it cannot stand up to the accumulating data against it.

Let's move on, please.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for sharing your opinion. Please don’t try to play this game with me. I can respond and I am not l;ost for words. I unfortunately do not always have the time to respond in much detail all the time.

Many doubt the historical reliability of the Old (and New) Testament. Nothing new. Some objections are often just silly as if they are dealing with fools.

Firstly, the New Testament (Jesus and other authors) written years later supports it. That is a major argument which cannot be wiped off the table and that alone is enough for me already.

For example, the Apostle Paul wrote, . . . from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3).

Jesus and the apostolic writers of the New Testament consistently taught or assumed the historical reliability of the Old Testament. This includes everything from God’s creation of the world to the patriarchs, to Moses, to the conquest and occupation of the land, to the period of the kings and prophets, and to the Babylonian exile and restoration, and points along the way.

There is, however, now also substantial external ancient and Near Eastern historical and archaeological backing for a lot of it as well.

And yes, much of what the Old Testament presents as historical has no direct confirmation in external sources. That is not proof that it did not happen, though.

Anyway, one could logically not expect, for example, that we would find the person of Abraham, for example, in all the textual or archaeological records of the ancient Near East. That would not be a rational expectation.

But we can show that his way of life is plausible for the time and place in which the story is set. Many ancient documents, confirm the sequence and dating of many of the kings of Israel and Judah, for example.

Most scepticism about Old Testament is, therefore, misplaced and often aggressively so.

As I have said, there are much external evidence for much of the events mentioned in the OT. Pharaoh Merneptah’s victory stele (ca. 1209 BC, perhaps around the time of the judge Deborah), for example, offers external verifiable evidence of the existence of a people called “Israel” in the hill country of Palestine in his day. There are many, many more examples to be seen in the British Museum in London for the whole world to see. That cannot be denied.

Lo and behold, there are still some who deny it, ignore it, or somehow reinterpret it because it does not fit with their scepticism. Historical “minimalists” consider the Old Testament to be fictional literature. The minimalist agenda will eventually defeat itself because it cannot stand up to the accumulating data against it.

Let's move on, please.

And we know where Troy was and when it was destroyed. We have a 'face mask of Agamemnon'.

That doesn't mean that Athena exists.

Yes, the Bible has *some* actual history. it also has propaganda and flat out myths. And the lack of evidence is quite sufficient to show that there was never a global flood and that the Exodus did not happen as stated.

Yes, Paul and Jesus *assumed* that the OT was historical. So what? They were wrong in many aspects.

Yes, the Merneptah stele shows the existence of a population of 'hibiru'. From other archeological evidence, we know these were a mountain population that gradually diverged from the surrounding Canaanite religions.

And?

I do NOT assume that the OT is all fictional. But I also do not assume it is all factually accurate. The later aspects (say, about Tiglath Pileser) correspond quite well with what can be verified from other sources. The earlier stuff (Exodus, for example) cannot.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
And we know where Troy was and when it was destroyed. We have a 'face mask of Agamemnon'.

That doesn't mean that Athena exists.

Yes, the Bible has *some* actual history. it also has propaganda and flat out myths. And the lack of evidence is quite sufficient to show that there was never a global flood and that the Exodus did not happen as stated.

Yes, Paul and Jesus *assumed* that the OT was historical. So what? They were wrong in many aspects.

Yes, the Merneptah stele shows the existence of a population of 'hibiru'. From other archeological evidence, we know these were a mountain population that gradually diverged from the surrounding Canaanite religions.

And?

I do NOT assume that the OT is all fictional. But I also do not assume it is all factually accurate. The later aspects (say, about Tiglath Pileser) correspond quite well with what can be verified from other sources. The earlier stuff (Exodus, for example) cannot.

Your response is so typical - just deny it, job done. (I'm smiling)
 

Five Solas

Active Member
No, not 'just' denying. Looking a the documents and history available and realizing the story is a myth.

Just words. Your response is so shallow it clearly shows you do not have a clue. You did not study anything. You did not compare anything. You are just repeating what others say.

It's not worth responding, really.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Just words. Your response is so shallow it clearly shows you do not have a clue. You did not study anything. You did not compare anything. You are just repeating what others say.

It's not worth responding, really.
If this isn't trolling, I don't know what is.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Just words. Your response is so shallow it clearly shows you do not have a clue. You did not study anything. You did not compare anything. You are just repeating what others say.

It's not worth responding, really.

Actually, I have studied the history and the content of your texts. I found them to be not all that different than other ancient texts: a mixture of history, propaganda, and myth.

I have studied the archeological record as well as the written histories of the times. I have looked at how the books in the Bible were selected and by whom.

Maybe this is 'shallow' in your mind, but if you have anything deeper, please let us know.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I will respond to rational arguments - not empty words.

But you get to select what you consider to be rational.

OK, let's start with an easy one: what is the firmament? What are the pillars of the Earth? And does the Earth move or does it 'hang' in space?
 
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