Atheists, where did the universe come from?

[Subduction Zone]

Physics. Nothing comes out of nothing. Universe cannot come out of nothing.

Physicists have measured the total energy of the universe. As accurately as they can measure the total energy is zero. That means technically the universe is"nothing" and your objection is without merit.

 

[Polymath257]

Not in the context of classical monotheism, which posits "god is eternal" or beyond the bounds of space and time. It's weird, and I'm not going to pretend to get it, but that's their god-concept.

But I would suggest that using the world 'always' when saying something is 'beyond the bounds of space and time' in that sense is a misuse of the word. More appropriate might be 'timeless'.

But, then, of course, the question arises as to how a timeless entity can be a cause for anything.

 

[LuisDantas]

It must have had a starting point, no?

Not necessarily.

Our mental processes are biased towards making such an assumption, but that does not make much of a real difference regarding the actual likelihood that there was a starting point as such for existence and/or for the universe.

Even if we somehow knew that such a proposition makes sense and turns out to be accurate, that would still be no reason to arbitrarily decide that the starting point had a "cause" as such.

Even if we somehow knew that there was a cause, it would not follow that it was somehow intentional, let alone conscious.

Even if we somehow knew (or perhaps at this point a better word would be "assumed") that there was in fact an intentional cause for existence itself, it is quite the jump to conclude from that such a very hypothetical cause would somehow be aware of humanity in any way, shape or form.

Even then, even taking for granted that there is in fact a conscious "first causer", that would in no way, shape or form imply that this causer would be for any reason worth of respect or even attention, let alone worship. Nor would we have any reason to assume that such an entity would have any degree of moral actualization or awareness.

I never quite understood how come the Abrahamics expect everyone else to make so many wild assumptions and think of those as somehow logical when there is literally no reason to and quite a lot of reasons to refrain from doing such a thing.

 

[osgart]

Anything spirit resembling in the universe is a beggar,. Nothing ideal exists, therefore there is no God.

But i do empathize with the claim of intentionality in the universe exists. I believe that it forms life. It has a strong appearance of existing that way. Who knows maybe the Akashic field exists.

 

[youknowme]

Do you mean that in a Socrates sense, a Quantum Mechanics sense, or a conventional sense?

I mean the very likely possibility that everything we know or think we know is in one way or another wrong.

 

[PureX]

I think you see this as you want to insist that many (most in your opinion) atheists are wrong because their way is not your way.

I didn't say they were wrong. I said they don't bother to try and understand why theists choose theism beyond their being weak and foolish.

 

[stvdv]

In a sense (the "Matrix" sense), the world is fiction because how we know it is just an interpretation of sensual data. Hence some people will insist we can never know whether something is true or not. But for the definition of knowledge it's not necessary to know whether something is true or not, and, in fact, it amounts to a contradiction to "know" knowing. In other words, knowing is something we do, not something we know.

Seems the "Matrix" got some ideas from the Indian Advaita; the world is unreal, an illusion (meaning it's everchanging)
To me "believing" is fiction, but being aware it's within this world which is in reality illusion (Advaita/Matrix)
To me "knowing" is truth, but being aware it's within this world which is in reality illusion (Advaita/Matrix)

 

[PureX]

But you are playing 'God of the gaps' with that argument.

"God" IS the "gap". The great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that exists. Knowing how a star formed, and what it's made of does not diminish this mystery. If anything, it just increases the profundity and magnitude of it.

 

[Nakosis]

It must have had a starting point, no?

No, a starting point is a human construct. One just arbitrarily state "whatever" starts at this point.

Just like the idea that everything started with God and then claiming that God is eternal. I don't know but it's just as easy to assume the universe is eternal until something comes along to prove otherwise.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It must have had a starting point, no?

No. Why do you assume it did?

 

[Nakosis]

Seems the "Matrix" got some ideas from the Indian Advaita; the world is unreal, an illusion (meaning it's everchanging)
To me "believing" is fiction, but being aware it's within this world which is in reality illusion (Advaita/Matrix)
To me "knowing" is truth, but being aware it's within this world which is in reality illusion (Advaita/Matrix)

I simply consider dreams, a dream seems like your reality until you wake up. Maybe at some point we will wake up from this reality realize that none of it was real. However we don't "know" that, we may feel it, but not actual knowledge of it IMO. Until then we are stuck accepting this reality.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Physics. Nothing comes out of nothing. Universe cannot come out of nothing.

Not true! According to the most current measurements, the total sum of all the energy and mass in the universe? Actually is *zero*.

If the universe were to be pressed back together, the net sum would be zero energy/mass.

So, in fact, it actually does appear that the universe came from nothing...

 

[stvdv]

Not true! According to the most current measurements, the total sum of all the energy and mass in the universe? Actually is *zero*.
If the universe were to be pressed back together, the net sum would be zero energy/mass.
So, in fact, it actually does appear that the universe came from nothing...

The universe is kind of huge, I always wonder how scientists dare make such claims (I have seen such claims change after a few years)
These scientists look a bit like theists claiming to know God; in my opinion. Both can be right, both can be wrong. I just say "I don't know"
But I must say, that this is an interesting subject "where did the Universe come from", but to huge for me to comprehend

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How you know that eventually God won't be needed?
better to keep saying "I don't know"

Because in all history, "god" has the one consistency, of not doing anything? So it's quite safe to assume this pattern will continue long enough, that people will finally quit believing in Santa Claus for Adults.

 

[Audie]

It must have had a starting point, no?

Goddists! Where does god come from???

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The universe is kind of huge, I always wonder how scientists dare make such claims (I have seen such claims change after a few years)
These scientists look a bit like theists claiming to know God; in my opinion. Both can be right, both can be wrong. I just say "I don't know"
But I must say, that this is an interesting subject "where did the Universe come from", but to huge for me to comprehend

To be sure, I was short-cutting the scientific accuracy for sake of brevity.

I likely should have included, "the observable universe" to my statement(s) above.

And indeed, we are restricted to a sphere approximately 15 billion (or so) years in diameter; that would be light years, naturally.

Obviously, this is the age of the observable universe, and we cannot see beyond that "border" due to Light's inability to move faster than it can. So the Universe that we See, cannot be larger than light may travel, during the current age of said Universe.

For all we know? The Universe is actually infinitely huge. No (current) way to tell.

But. The Maths (or so I've been told by Experts in the field of Cosmology) do work out to a sum of Zero. I accept their statements at face value, as they have no real Axe To Grind, for saying otherwise.

 

[Audie]

Many people misconceptualize money as the embodiment of happiness, power, self-esteem, and even sex appeal. How people choose to misunderstand reality is endless. But that doesn't change the facts of the reality they choose to misunderstand.
They are questioned and challenged, even by theists. But not everyone applies the same criteria for winning or losing that challenge. Everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes reasonable evidence. For most people it's some version of "whatever works in the moment". (That's true of science, as well.)
Yet MANY (most, I think) atheists see religion as an "enemy" ideology because they don't bother to try and understand why theists choose to conceptualize reality as they do. And instead, they just insist that the theists way is "wrong" because it's not the atheist's way.
It's why I bring up the counter-point.

Why do you always bring up facts-not-in-evidence?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I have never come by a thesist who doesn't agree that God has always been since God is not limited to time and space.

I have. Go look at the Theology of the Navajo Peoples-- from the Southwestern United States (Native Americans)

In fact, many of the Native American theological stories not only do not have a central god-figure, they often have their gods Becoming from something else (or from nothing).

Read wider than Abrhamic theology; it's often quite fascinating.

One of my favorite Characters in North American Gods? Is often represented by a Raven or a Coyote.

 

[Audie]

To be sure, I was short-cutting the scientific accuracy for sake of brevity.

I likely should have included, "the observable universe" to my statement(s) above.

And indeed, we are restricted to a sphere approximately 15 billion (or so) years in diameter; that would be light years, naturally.

Obviously, this is the age of the observable universe, and we cannot see beyond that "border" due to Light's inability to move faster than it can. So the Universe that we See, cannot be larger than light may travel, during the current age of said Universe.

For all we know? The Universe is actually infinitely huge. No (current) way to tell.

But. The Maths (or so I've been told by Experts in the field of Cosmology) do work out to a sum of Zero. I accept their statements at face value, as they have no real Axe To Grind, for saying otherwise.

At the risk of repeating, I did read a sci fi that did deal with
whether the universe is infinite.

they got is a space ship to go see...went really really far and
fast and long.

FINALLY, a wall!!!

It proves to be covered with graffitti, and a big sign in
every language of the universe.

Finally,they find, in English-

HALT
THIS IS THE END OF THE UNIVERSE

Up closer, they see a hole in the wall, and another
sign.

"Dont believe it? Take a look."

They edge up close, and take a look.

Sure enough, there is nothing on t he other side!

 

[Audie]

I have. Go look at the Theology of the Navajo Peoples-- from the Southwestern United States (Native Americans)

In fact, many of the Native American theological stories not only do not have a central god-figure, they often have their gods Becoming from something else (or from nothing).

Read wider than Abrhamic theology; it's often quite fascinating.

One of my favorite Characters in North American Gods? Is often represented by a Raven or a Coyote.

American Native stories have a lot of transformation
myths in them.