• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And a message to share. And miracles that people would believe they are actually prophets and there is God.

Which message? Jesus is god? Buddha achieved enlightenment? Chairman Mao says...

Oh wait, you only believe that one human is a prophet. You dismiss the other gazillion prophets. But you never give me a reason to think you know which prophet, if any, knows the truth better than I do. You just keep claiming that you know, and making irrelevant assertions.

Tom
 

Alceste

Vagabond
What about the reason for our existence? You believe that we live and we die and that is it ?

I don't think you're understanding where I'm coming from. When there is no evidence to support a particular proposition, I simply believe nothing until such time as evidence becomes available. I don't just make up answers or believe anybody who claims to have them.

I don't understand consciousness completely, but most evidence does suggest that to be conscious at all requires a biological platform. That makes me lean toward the speculation that death ends consciousness. So just as I experienced nothing before I was born, I expect to experience nothing after my death.
It is logical. God wanted to deliver to pass us a message. He chose to do it through prophets.

I'm not sure how well acquainted you are with the rules of logic, but I can assure you that this statement does not conform to them.

Logic is not the same as rationalization.

In that case would you consider the evidence I would suggest?

To be completely honest, I probably wouldn't. I suspect it's going to be a YouTube video or some interminable exercise in wishful thinking using scripture as a platform to imagine things that are not there.

I've seen all these things before, again and again, and I have not found any of them to be in the least bit persuasive. It's just people making claims, and in general I find people to be rather inept at supporting those claims with empirical evidence and deductive reasoning.

That's why I usually accept the conclusions of scientists. Not because they are more important or intelligent than the rest of us, but because they show their evidence and their deductive reasoning every step of the way so that anyone can verify their claims independently.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I don't think it will be worth the wait. Because what ever they would find, they would say well actually this may be the cause of this and that doesn't necessarily mean that God exists.

That's fine with me. I don't need God to exist, or not to exist. It doesn't even strike me as a very interesting question, particularly compared to the questions physicists are currently trying to answer.
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

It mainly started after watching a debate between William Lane Craig and Andrew Pyle. Ironically, a Christian friend lent it to me saying it was a great argument for Christianity. After watching the debate I felt otherwise. About 6 months of questioning my beliefs led me to leave Christianity.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
That's fine with me. I don't need God to exist, or not to exist. It doesn't even strike me as a very interesting question, particularly compared to the questions physicists are currently trying to answer.
So true, the question of God's existence or non-existence bores me to tears.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Did you ever had such experience ?
Not personally, no.

Well okay for me you trust your personal experience. Because I consider that taking time to think and reflect is part of that experience.
I don't think it's an issue of trust, really. People can be convinced that their experience is true, even if they aren't, so it's not a case of trusting them as much as it is simply trusting whether or not their account is accurate or influenced in some way by some means that the individual is unaware of unable to consider. It's not that a person may be lying about their experience, it's more that a person can simply be wrong about what they attribute that experience to.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So do you consider a book which has all explanations needed with no errors do?
There's no evidence that any of the explanations of any books on the suprnatural are right,
since they're not testable. In fact, they wouldn't even be wrong. (W Pauli joke reference there.)

Well in that sense, what started that universe or infinite universes.
I have no idea. Would they need to have a start?
If one posits a supreme being, how would it have started? Would it need to have a start?

I disbelieve in answers which cannot be verified.
 

Gordian Knot

Being Deviant IS My Art.
One-Answer said "Something can't exist and not exist at the same time. So universe didn't create it self"

This statement has always puzzled me. The universe cannot have created itself, so a deity must have done it.

For a deity to have done it, the deity must have created itself, or is eternal.

If a deity can be one of those two things, why can't the natural universe do the same thing. To state that it must be a deity is an arbitrary decision. Yes, to say it was the natural universe is also an arbitrary decision.

If they are both arbitrary decisions, how can anyone choose one over the other. The only reasonable answer is we don't know.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

Well for me, I was raised in a Christian family. By the age of 7 or so I began to realise that God was imaginary just as Santa Clause had turned out to be. What made me lose my faith was that my doubts made me ask questions and the answers I got were either evasions, distortions or brush offs.

I had an enquiring mind and the world view Christianity presented simply did not correlate with reality.

Essentially though, I am an atheist for exactly the same reasons why adults don't believe in Santa.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
And you should be wary of the errors present in believers' sincere faith as well, so I don't see any downsides.

For a person who says that inspiration has errors, and is following a religion, This means he didn't find errors.

Do you realize that this amounts to simply wanting to know better than the people themselves, on a matter that is so very personal?

I don't know if I understood what you wrote the proper way, but I would totally understand if someone isn't interested in this discussion or answering me.



That is a puzzling statement to behold. I wonder if you are aware of how free to learn about faiths (particularly Christianity, but definitely many others as well) Mr. T would be.

NO matter what the religion is, as children begin growing they are highly influenced by what their parents do or don't do. That was my point.

How do you know that there was a start, or a cause for such a hypothetical start?

We can see that man is born and dies, and man cannot grow beyond a certain size in height and weight. All of life is similarly limited, and the earth, moon and stars likewise have a starting and end point. The life of a star or galaxy may be a very long period of time, but they are definitely limited in that they all have a starting and ending. The universe is a very large place but it is a finite space, and is not unlimited. No scientist has been able to bring a definite evidence that suggests the universe has no limits. So to suggest that it is infinite means we are going beyond the bounds of what we can rationally assess. Such a thought requires us to challenge ourselves to find any6 example in our world of perception that is unlimited, no matter how hard we search we cannot find such an example. All we can perceive is limited, finite.


Even if we did, aren't you in essence claiming that God is a special exception just because? If he can be such an exception, why can't we cut the middledeity and make such a claim of exception the existence itself?

Because if something created a god, than he is not god.

Problem is, there is no particularly coherent message, and miracles are neither reliable nor convincing in a religious sense.

Unless the miracle can be tested.

As for convincing people that there is God, that is even more questionable.

Why would God want people to believe yet not make it so? Why resort to hiding himself only to them make a point of expecting belief?


Isn't the very existence of atheists evidence that there is no particular need to believe?

And if God does nonetheless exist and want to be acknowledged, how come it is all but impossible to reach an agreement about even the basics of what he wants, or what he is like?

Because life is a test. This life isn't all.

(I realize that I was not the person being asked, but anyway...)

I like receiving answers from anyone :)

Of course not. There is also making something worth with the time while we exist.

That involves mainly caring for the legacy we inherit from others, both deceased and living, and passing it forward and drawing purpose from it.

This is a small part. There is more. Like after life.

So why would one struggle and be a good person, while the other is free to do what he wants.


On the contrary, logic indicates that such a thing did not happen, since the evidence is overwhelming that religious teachings are a human creation and to a considerable degree dependent on culture.

Religions and the existence of God are not together to both fail or succeed in the same time.

If God existed and sent down a "way of life" or a "religion", than that should be the way it is right? In other words, there would be only one right religion.

If "Christianity" fails and "hindauism" fails, this doesn't mean there isn't God. This means the religions are wrong.


My experience mirrors his, and I must say that I don't remember you presenting anything new, nor convincing.

Then again, why even attempt to? It is not like it is important for any of us to believe in God except perhaps out of personal need.

Actually it is so much important.

If there is God, this means there is a purpose, a massage, right and wrong.

If you are interested in the subject, I can recommend you a booklet. I think what I am trying to say would be more clear. It is about 10 pages.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Which message? Jesus is god? Buddha achieved enlightenment? Chairman Mao says...

Oh wait, you only believe that one human is a prophet. You dismiss the other gazillion prophets. But you never give me a reason to think you know which prophet, if any, knows the truth better than I do. You just keep claiming that you know, and making irrelevant assertions.

Tom

Nope not one prophet.

Idris[4] (&#1573;&#1583;&#1585;&#1610;&#1587;) is, at times, identified with Enoch
Noah, Saleh , Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Shuaib, Moses, Aaron or Haroon, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Zechariah, John the Baptist[30] (Yahya, &#1610;&#1581;&#1610;&#1609;) , Jesus, and Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

All the prophets knew more than you know. But do I know more than you know? That isn't for me to judge
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I don't think you're understanding where I'm coming from. When there is no evidence to support a particular proposition, I simply believe nothing until such time as evidence becomes available. I don't just make up answers or believe anybody who claims to have them.

I understand that.

I don't understand consciousness completely, but most evidence does suggest that to be conscious at all requires a biological platform. That makes me lean toward the speculation that death ends consciousness. So just as I experienced nothing before I was born, I expect to experience nothing after my death.

How about what you experience during your sleep? I mean dreams.

I'm not sure how well acquainted you are with the rules of logic, but I can assure you that this statement does not conform to them.

Logic is not the same as rationalization.

I found it weird that you mentioned the latter sentence. Because If God existed, then what I said would be logical.

This is why I think what I said is logical

Mankind is driven to satisfy his organic needs and his instincts, and without any form of criterion for right and wrong surely he will go astray. The annals of history are full of man’s oppression of man. Greed, selfishness, killing, monopoly, and vice are manifestations of man fulfilling his survival instinct. If man is prepared to go as far as killing others in satisfaction of his needs , then surely man is in need of control over his actions. Without a criterion for action the striving for satisfaction of mans needs will lead him to constant conflict with others. One man’s freedom is anothers slavery. God has not left man to his own devices, man has never been free to undertake his life in which ever way he feels best. It is wholly consistent with our perception of man as being limited, dependant and imperfect, that for man to bring his own way, his own system, would be false, due to man’s limited understanding of life. Man is always subject to bias, disparity, differences, contradictions and the influence of his current environment, hardly a basis for complete impartiality and absolute truth. Any man made system will suffer from these same bias,disparity, differences, contradictions and influence. The example of modern day politicians and their links with the business community serves as a reminder of how the supposedly impartial nature of the political function can be abused. The religiousness instinct within man serves as a reminder to us of how mankind can be diverted from his true goal in life. History shows us many instances of man worshipping the Sun, Stars, Fire, Stone idols, and more recently books, writers, leaders and material things. Faced with this strong instinct of dependence/sanctification man strives to satisfy this need, but without a system or clear guidance in this matter purely intuitive or instinctive acts of worship have led man astray. Man must use his mind to establish the source of the correct form of sanctification/worship. It is not possible for a limited being to comprehend an unlimited being, therefore the Creator has given mankind communication through a channel that is clear for him. God has sent Prophets and Messengers (Prophets with the divine law) to mankind to give guidance in all of our affairs. The Prophets were each given miracles which proved to mankind the authenticity of their Prophethood. So we see that Musa (Moses) was given the power of magic, when his staff was thrown down and turned to a snake devouring the staffs of the magicians. Or similarly Isa (Jesus) was given the ability to cure the sick. The miracle given to Muhammad (pbuh) was the Qur’an, the word of God.


To be completely honest, I probably wouldn't. I suspect it's going to be a YouTube video or some interminable exercise in wishful thinking using scripture as a platform to imagine things that are not there.

Not youtube video not exercise. It is what I believe the word of God to be. It is the Quraan
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
It mainly started after watching a debate between William Lane Craig and Andrew Pyle. Ironically, a Christian friend lent it to me saying it was a great argument for Christianity. After watching the debate I felt otherwise. About 6 months of questioning my beliefs led me to leave Christianity.

I think with Christianity this is always bound to happen.

But now that you left christianity, aren't there things you still believe in?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Not personally, no.


I don't think it's an issue of trust, really. People can be convinced that their experience is true, even if they aren't, so it's not a case of trusting them as much as it is simply trusting whether or not their account is accurate or influenced in some way by some means that the individual is unaware of unable to consider. It's not that a person may be lying about their experience, it's more that a person can simply be wrong about what they attribute that experience to.

I can't argue with that.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
There's no evidence that any of the explanations of any books on the suprnatural are right,
since they're not testable. In fact, they wouldn't even be wrong. (W Pauli joke reference there.)

I have no idea. Would they need to have a start?
If one posits a supreme being, how would it have started? Would it need to have a start?

I disbelieve in answers which cannot be verified.

What about logical thinking ?
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
One-Answer said "Something can't exist and not exist at the same time. So universe didn't create it self"

This statement has always puzzled me. The universe cannot have created itself, so a deity must have done it.

For a deity to have done it, the deity must have created itself, or is eternal.

Eternal

If a deity can be one of those two things, why can't the natural universe do the same thing. To state that it must be a deity is an arbitrary decision. Yes, to say it was the natural universe is also an arbitrary decision.
the earth, moon and stars likewise have a starting and end point. The life of a star or galaxy may be a very long period of time, but they are definitely limited in that they all have a starting and ending. The universe is a very large place but it is a finite space, and is not unlimited.

If they are both arbitrary decisions, how can anyone choose one over the other. The only reasonable answer is we don't know.

1- Everything we are observing is limited and dependent on something else.
2- Therefore everything we are observing is created.
3- At some point, "something" should have existed that created the whole thing
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Well for me, I was raised in a Christian family. By the age of 7 or so I began to realise that God was imaginary just as Santa Clause had turned out to be. What made me lose my faith was that my doubts made me ask questions and the answers I got were either evasions, distortions or brush offs.

I had an enquiring mind and the world view Christianity presented simply did not correlate with reality.

Essentially though, I am an atheist for exactly the same reasons why adults don't believe in Santa.

Why tie up the existence of God with answers about christianity.

If one is wrong it doesn't mean the other is
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I was brought up by muslim parents.
But I never really believed even from a young age as I've always been analytical. I would always ask my parents questions and would never recieve satisfactory answers. Then in my early twenty when the Internet started taking off I started researching Islam and came across websites claiming how the Koran contains miracles. My naivety and gullibility as well as my ignorance led me to believe all these claims were true and I soon was convinced and became a practising muslim. Shortly afterwards I started debating on religious forums thinking I must share this with everyone, but I was soon put in my place by others who knew about all these lies concerning miracles in the Koran.
I then started doing my own research reading the Koran, tasfirs and hadeeths which confirmed to me that I had been fooled!
I then learnt that many of these so called miracles were actually errors (as with the 20 miracles you mention in your thread) and having studied mythology realised the Koran was full of them (myths) and unsurprisingly called them signs!!

Thanks for mentioning up my thread.

Similarly, I read your thread "errors in Quraan". I left the thread immediately after seeing the OP. I expected to see some actual material to discuss.

And by the way I didn't see anyone talking this bad about himself.

And by the way Mr "truthisnotyourenemy" I want to tell you one thing, truth is not you enemy.

I hope Allah guides you, have a nice day :)
 
Top