With respect to Biblical God
If a prophet says: For one day all eggs all over the world, when broken, will unbreak by themselves, aND it happens all over the world. Then that would be sufficient.
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Athiests Only: What would suffice as proof of God?
- Thread starter Comprehend
- Start date
If a prophet says: For one day all eggs all over the world, when broken, will unbreak by themselves, aND it happens all over the world. Then that would be sufficient.
Geoff-Allen
Resident megalomaniac
If a supernatural being created the laws of nature then they would have NO difficulty "breaking" them!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Here is one that would pretty well convince me. And if god is really GOD it would be easy to do.
On the next full moon a message appears across the face:
I am the Lord thy God.
Every person looking at the moon sees that message in his native language. Blind persons and those otherwise unable to see the moon are aware the message is there and what it says. Illiterate persons are also aware of the message and what it says. Photos taken of the message share the same language; that is a photo taken by an English speaking person shows the message in English. That same photo shown to a one speaking another language shows the message is HIS native language. IOW, the message exists in the viewers mind rather than independently on the photo. Movies show the same thing. Persons viewing it see the message in their language whether on TV in a movie house, DVD wherever the message is there in the viewers native language.
As the moon wanes the message remains visible exactly as before.
On the next full moon the message changes:
And I am coming for all of you and I am ******!:shout
Damn well get MY attention.
Ironic. When I see written, an idea I had come up with on Topix, years ago, in a completely different place.
Love it!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
To the OP:
There is the problem of All-Knowing: if, as the label suggests, god is All-knowing?
Then it stands to reason, that said god knows exactly what would be required for me, an atheist, to change my mind and accept the god in question is a real thing.
The fact that this has never happened? Says much about this god-being--and none of it is positive.
The tired old adage of "you have to have faith" is easily refuted with: why? Faith, by definition is belief in things for which there is no evidence. Why would I do that? It's not rational.
Another tired adage of "free will", in that for some inexplicable reason god seems to require a nebulous existence in order to "preserve free will." However, that is just as easy to refute: according to the various Myths about god(s)? There are always some being who exists in the same realm as the Chief God (or the Only God, in monotheism), who has certain knowledge of god's existence, yet is able to exercise.... free will.
Thus, it seems that having certain knowledge (not faith) of god existing, has no effect at all, on also being capable of free will.
In the final analysis? If there is a god, and if said god is All-Powerful? (in addition to All-Knowing...) then-- this god is directly responsible for me being an atheist, and it's kind of arrogant for theists to try to interfere with God's Holy Plans, by trying to convert me...
There is the problem of All-Knowing: if, as the label suggests, god is All-knowing?
Then it stands to reason, that said god knows exactly what would be required for me, an atheist, to change my mind and accept the god in question is a real thing.
The fact that this has never happened? Says much about this god-being--and none of it is positive.
The tired old adage of "you have to have faith" is easily refuted with: why? Faith, by definition is belief in things for which there is no evidence. Why would I do that? It's not rational.
Another tired adage of "free will", in that for some inexplicable reason god seems to require a nebulous existence in order to "preserve free will." However, that is just as easy to refute: according to the various Myths about god(s)? There are always some being who exists in the same realm as the Chief God (or the Only God, in monotheism), who has certain knowledge of god's existence, yet is able to exercise.... free will.
Thus, it seems that having certain knowledge (not faith) of god existing, has no effect at all, on also being capable of free will.
In the final analysis? If there is a god, and if said god is All-Powerful? (in addition to All-Knowing...) then-- this god is directly responsible for me being an atheist, and it's kind of arrogant for theists to try to interfere with God's Holy Plans, by trying to convert me...
None of the Biblical 'miracles' is even close to being good enough.
The answer depends, of course, on which definition of 'God' is being used. So, for example, if your definition is 'the creator of the universe', the following might apply:
1. A signal detected in the cosmic background radiation that can be decoded to read 'Made by Yahweh'.
2. A collection of galaxies, isolated from others, that form a 'signature'.
On the other hand, if you only are asking about the creation of life on Earth, how about
3. A string of codons in the DNA of all species which, when interpreted as a binary message (two bits per codon), produce a 'photograph' of the Earth.
I'm sure there are other such examples, but you get the idea. It has to be something that clearly carries unambiguous information in a situation where such information would not be expected *and* can be interpreted as showing information that could only be known to a creator. Anything written by humans is clearly insufficient.
The answer depends, of course, on which definition of 'God' is being used. So, for example, if your definition is 'the creator of the universe', the following might apply:
1. A signal detected in the cosmic background radiation that can be decoded to read 'Made by Yahweh'.
2. A collection of galaxies, isolated from others, that form a 'signature'.
On the other hand, if you only are asking about the creation of life on Earth, how about
3. A string of codons in the DNA of all species which, when interpreted as a binary message (two bits per codon), produce a 'photograph' of the Earth.
I'm sure there are other such examples, but you get the idea. It has to be something that clearly carries unambiguous information in a situation where such information would not be expected *and* can be interpreted as showing information that could only be known to a creator. Anything written by humans is clearly insufficient.
Thumper
Thank the gods I'm an atheist
"We're not two sides of the same coin, and you don't get to put your unreason up on the same shelf with my reason. Your stuff has to go over there, on the shelf with Zeus and Thor and the Kraken, with the stuff that is not evidence-based, stuff that religious people never change their mind about, no matter what happens ... I'm open to anything for which there's evidence. Show me a god, and I will believe in him. If Jesus Christ comes down from the sky during the halftime show of this Sunday's Super Bowl and turns all the nachos into loaves and fishes, well, I'll think ... "Oh, look at that. I was wrong. There he is. My bad. Praise the Lord." ~ Bill Maher
Id look to psychological explanations rather than philosophical causes.
Psychology of religious conversion - Wikipedia
Psychology of religious conversion - Wikipedia
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
That wouldn't be all that difficult, really-- for an OmniMax being. Would it?
A simple case: this 'god' shows up and says "Hi!" to everyone on Earth-- at the same time, in each language, and including all nonhuman intelligences capable of comprehending the 'Hi'.
That would be a pretty good beginning. Of course, being skeptical, this 'god' would need to provide additional bona fides. I'm remembering several episodes (and a movie) of Star Trek, where a superbeing shows up to a mildly primitive people, claiming to be a "long lost god" or some such.
So, we'd need a wee bit more than just the 'hi'.
What I find sad, though? Is that after thousands of years, not one single god as promoted by godfollowers, has ever managed this simple task.
Why? What possible motive could a god have for hiding (apart from a very select few)?
As youngsters, humans have a pretty good instinctive grasp of what is Fair. A primary trait of "Fair" is Egalitarianism: equal treatment to all (in the group).
I would expect no less that Divine Fairness from a being worthy of the title 'God'. That is--not just a Select Few (as is the case with 100% of all gods on earth, as described by their respective followers), but to Everyone, Equally.
And, no, faith isn't a virtue: Faith is a surrender of Reason, it is a tacit acceptance against evidence to the contrary.
Probably nothing.
Each person will have his or her criteria for deciding what qualifies as a God.
To me personally it is difficult to see a reason to attempt to believe in a God that is not proven to exist... but at the same time, it is just as difficult to see a reason to call something that is proven to exist a "God".
Were I to somehow become a theist, odds are that it would be because I felt like it, without any involvement from proofs or even evidence.
Convince me of the existence of magic or miracles? Perhaps.
Of the existence of God? I don't see any reason to expect that.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I'm going to put my two-cents here, even though I am not an atheist (relax, I am not going to discuss the topic proper).
From my experience, it seems to me that such an event is a matter of "moving the goalposts." Like, I'll believe in God if he cures my mother of cancer. I'll believe in God if he comes along in the clouds with a platoon of angels. I'll believe in God if he performs a miracle right now, this very second. I'll believe in God if I meet him in person. I'll believe in God if, if, if.
But suppose you meet in person, wouldn't you dismiss it as just another guy? If you saw a miracle right now, bah just a coincidence. If you saw a being in the clouds with a squad of angels, you would either say bah it wasn't a whole platoon therefore God must not exist, or I'm hallucinating that's it. And if your mother is cured of cancer, you'd thank the doctors (even though the actual statistics of chemo put it at about 97% fail rate).
The ifs being carried out are never gonna convince you. Neither will hours of debate, even logical debate. If you were gonna believe, you would accept...
So, God has rudely decided, through me, to enter a thread that the poster said "no theists allowed." God is speaking, through me, to you and telling you the truth about your so-called standards of what constitutes proof of God. Will the God that is in you listen? Or will you deny that part of yourself, and continue to make excuses for not believing? And honestly, if you want to be agnostic, this is fine too. But atheism, with a side of "I'll believe if" is just an excuse. You'll believe, or you won't believe.
From my experience, it seems to me that such an event is a matter of "moving the goalposts." Like, I'll believe in God if he cures my mother of cancer. I'll believe in God if he comes along in the clouds with a platoon of angels. I'll believe in God if he performs a miracle right now, this very second. I'll believe in God if I meet him in person. I'll believe in God if, if, if.
But suppose you meet in person, wouldn't you dismiss it as just another guy? If you saw a miracle right now, bah just a coincidence. If you saw a being in the clouds with a squad of angels, you would either say bah it wasn't a whole platoon therefore God must not exist, or I'm hallucinating that's it. And if your mother is cured of cancer, you'd thank the doctors (even though the actual statistics of chemo put it at about 97% fail rate).
The ifs being carried out are never gonna convince you. Neither will hours of debate, even logical debate. If you were gonna believe, you would accept...
- Seeing God in everyday people
- Ordinary miracles like life, orderly universe, and your own ability to evolve
- God's presence in your life without grand displays
- God's healing in our life, and even times where those in pain are allowed to rest
So, God has rudely decided, through me, to enter a thread that the poster said "no theists allowed." God is speaking, through me, to you and telling you the truth about your so-called standards of what constitutes proof of God. Will the God that is in you listen? Or will you deny that part of yourself, and continue to make excuses for not believing? And honestly, if you want to be agnostic, this is fine too. But atheism, with a side of "I'll believe if" is just an excuse. You'll believe, or you won't believe.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
I would fully expect any singular being, worthy of the title 'god' to be Godly.
And above such mundane pettiness as curing or not, thundering or not or other minor Special Effects.
Any 'god' worth it's salt, can magic up a Universal Cure, or manifest as an indestructible Lady Bug in a bit of flaming shrubbery.
<yawn>
No-- I would expect nothing less than Stupendous! Magnificent! Wonderful! and more... such that, any mortal seeing it --- especially if said mortal is also blind -- would not have to guess, nor would there be any doubts at all, that this being was Worthy.
What would that look like? How the heck should *I* know! I'm one of those mortal beings!
But I know what does not Impress: little mundane things that are no different from random happenstances.
Or worse: the message(s) are confined to a Select Special Few Self-Important Mortals, raised Above All The Rabble.
Humans have evolved societies beyond the need for Kings, Tyrants, Popes and such things. We no longer accept magic, and we no longer subscribe to Divine Right Of Kings either.
Heck-- not even the Pope is selected by that--- they get together and vote in a new pope!
So. What would it be? It's easier to say what it would not be. And Fred, the Street Preacher ain't gonna cut the mustard. Neither is a Proclamation From The Pope, for that matter (since I was using that analogy already).
The fact that there is more evidence for scientific evolution than there is for gods?
Tells me a great deal about the Universe; principally, that if there be gods, they are rather indifferent if we mere humans even notice them or simply ignore them wholesale.
Poppa
Member
It doesn't really matter in the end. It won't happen anyway (of that i have faith!) I think that even to answer the question sort of entertains the idea that "hey, maybe there could be a god and it would be neat if he would just... do this...
I have had enough of these discussions to feel confident that all believers believe because of faith... no other reason. And i say to you, that what you ask could not happen because my faith is a strong and as certain as is yours. (except mine is correct... sorry couldn't resist!). Seriously, you would have much better luck presenting all your miracles and wading through the mire of contradictions until you found something none could refute. Good luck with that.
I have had enough of these discussions to feel confident that all believers believe because of faith... no other reason. And i say to you, that what you ask could not happen because my faith is a strong and as certain as is yours. (except mine is correct... sorry couldn't resist!). Seriously, you would have much better luck presenting all your miracles and wading through the mire of contradictions until you found something none could refute. Good luck with that.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
None of the miracles would convince me of the existence of any god. I would simply have observed something that I could not explain.
I have no idea what would convince me of the existence of a particular god, but, being a god, the god should know what that evidence would be. The god has not to date provided the evidence (or I would believe). It follows that either that god does not want me to believe or does not care if I believe. In either case, there is nothing I could do.....the ball is in it's court.
If God were to address the entire world, in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us can understand to clear up all the misconceptions people have of him, this would convince me (and everybody else) that he is real
Joshua Pryce
Member
1. The capabilities of damage and support a person brings into relationships. What i mean is everything has a spiritual origin. The goodness of the Holy Spirit shows through the goodness of the people who believe in Christ. There are levels of goodness.
2. Demon possession, demons know more than men and manifest wildly and uncontrollably in literal ways, honestly i thought this was false until it happened to me. People tend to go by impulses but these impulses can be directed by demon possession. Such as ignoring conscience and raping and killing and stealing things knowing its wrong.