Atiratra

[ShivaFan]

"Ati-Ratra (the two-month long dark cold Arctic night)" - Aupmanyav

Namaste Aupmanyav,

I think this topic deserves it's own thread, even if it is short lived.

I find this very interesting, and I want to do some "deep dive" analysis/research on this, it was new information and my gut feel is this might be important information that opens a lot of revealing doors.

My understanding, probably incorrectly, was atiratra is "overnight". Also there is a thunderbolt weapon know as the Atiratra Vajra (probably held by Indra) used to strike the Asuras (anti-Suras) who had taken hiding in "the night" or darkness. These particular Asuras have the ability to hide in this manner, and this bolt could strike them over night. The Atiratra became a "surname" for a particular sacrifice associated with a mantra which was given the parallel status of Gayatri, but while Gayatri is associated with the Day or Sun Divinity, the mantra associated with the Night or Moon Divinty is this mantra and the words of this mantra can invoke Agni and this Thunder Bolt.

But it seems it is actually a period of night lasting 2 months? And is associated with more of an Arctic weather trend?

* where does this term specifically come from in scripture or tradition?

* is it still used today in some manner by temple priests and/or jyotish practitioners?

* what is this, specifically, mantra that is the parallel mantra associated with the night to Gayatri associated with Savitri and Sun Divinity? Does this mantra exist, and what refrences it?

* Is there a Atiratra Thunderbolt and Who holds or possesses this?

* or is this simply language in a poetic sense for a special sacrufice to Agni or other?

Thank you and to anyone with response or answers... I apologuze if this has already been discussed in detail.

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[Poeticus]

Here's some helpful advice, SF:

Take any statements made by Aup that involve the terms, "Arctic", "Tilak", "Veda-s", "Indus© Pencils", "Pakistan", "Aryans", "indigenous", "Kamboja-s", "my ancestors", and "Hindu-Atheism", with large, bucket loads full of salt.​

EDIT:

ps -

These particular Asuras have the ability to hide in this manner, and this bolt could strike them over night. The Atiratra became a "surname" for a particular sacrifice associated with a mantra which was given the parallel status of Gayatri

If it is a mantra from the Veda-s, it automatically has parallel status to the Gayatri, since each are revelations from the Shri Gods; one mantra cannot be discriminated or put into a hierarchy over other mantra-s, otherwise it downplays the concept of the apaurusheya - pretty much making the Veda-s fallible and non-divine in the process.

 

[Aupmanyav]

1. Indra did not fight 'Asuras', as he is himself an 'Asura'. His fight was with 'Dasas/Dasyus'.
2. The 'Ati-Ratra' sacrifices (including 'Ashvamedha') were also known as 'Ratri-kratus' (sacrifices done in the night), I think perhaps when Aryans did not have much to do other than subsist on what had been collected during the day, food for themselves and fodder for their kine.
3. The term comes from people who experienced this. Later they moved far over milleniums, but the term and the ritual stuck, so we still have the idea in India, and I suppose nowhere else. Even the Indo-Iranian Iranians abandoned the idea when they accepted Zarathrushta's monotheism.
4. As far as I know, Ati-Ratra is known to Vedic scholars and practioners in India.
5. I do not know about any special mantra for Ati-Ratra, though we have a hymn to Ratri (Night) in RigVeda, which is very interesting.

1. WITH all her eyes the Goddess Night looks forth approaching many a spot:
She hath put all her glories on.
2 Immortal. she hath filled the waste, the Goddess hath filled height and depth:
She conquers darkness with her light.
3 The Goddess as she comes hath set the Dawn her Sister in her place:
And then the darkness vanishes.
4 So favour us this night, O thou whose pathways we have visited
As birds their nest upon the tree.
5 The villagers have sought their homes, and all that walks and all that flies,
Even the falcons fain for prey.
6 Keep off the she-wolf and the wolf, O Urmya, keep the thief away;
Easy be thou for us to pass.
7 Clearly hath she come nigh to me who decks the dark with richest hues:
O Morning, cancel it like debts.
8 These have I brought to thee like kine. O Night, thou Child of Heaven, accept
This laud as for a conqueror.​

Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXVII. Night.

I want to being your attention to the underlined portion. Even Tilak did not mention it. 'Richest Hues' in the night! Where does it happen? Not in India at least. Does this not show a connection with the Arctic? The Auroras. And does anyone make a hymn for a night of 8 hours as it happens in the temperate regions. It must have been a special kind of night to merit a hymn.

6. There is no special 'Ati-Ratra' thunderbolt. Thunderbolt (Vajra) is Indra's weapon which he holds all the time and uses when required.
7. 'Ati-Ratra' sacrifices are special and conducted only during that period. The most important of them being the 'Ashvamedha' yajna (sort of the final preparation for the war on Dasas/Dasyus).

I acknowledge my biases as mentioned by MaitraVarunih, but IMHO, the reasons are strong and should be considered.

 

[Poeticus]

Does this not show a connection with the Arctic?

Nope. The verse is talking about the 'gems' of the night-sky: aka, the stars. She decks herself with these stars as if they were jewels, and comes morning: poof! gone! the 'jewels' are not there anymore and she finds herself in debt! This is a well-known, universally accepted reality by Vedicists concerning Devi Ratri.

 

[ShivaFan]

This is literally making the hairs on the back of my neck sand upnwith excitement. Both are amazing replies, now I wish I had the knowledge of Sanskrit you two have. And it reinforces what is obvious to many Western Hindus, the HUGE importance of the Rig Ved.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nope. The verse is talking about the 'gems' of the night-sky: aka, the stars.

Nope, IMHO, they are talking about hues (at least that is what Ralph Griffith says). 'Keep off the she-wolf', the bears are in hibernation, wolf is still a danger.

"उप मा पेपिशत तमः कर्ष्णं वयक्तमस्थित |"
(Upa mā pepishat tamah karshnam vyaktamasthita)

Will anybody help? I have to go to our old house to get the gas connected. Will come back later.

 

[Poeticus]

Aup,

Re-read verse 7 once more: she literally "decks" herself with the "richest hues". We have to acknowledge that this is about a Goddess of the Night, who is rarely identified with darkness of the night, and is instead usually identified with the stars and portions of the milky way. The stars are decked onto her body as if they are precious and expensive jewels that act as shining spots of light that keep 100% darkness away. Secondly, how can you make a definitive correlation with Aurora Borealis? What in the world would a "rich" hue look like? Blond? Crimson? Yellow? Gold? Peach? How come they are "rich" and not, let's say, brunette or black or dark brown? Why make such a correlation in the first place? It would be no different if I were to take a look at the verses condemning Nirrti, who has blond hair, BTW, and prematurely conclude that blond-haired people can't come onto yajna-grounds because Nirrti, the blond-haired one, wasn't allowed either. It would be nonsensical.

Finally, take a look at verse 1: "with all her eyes". I fail to see how the Aurora can act as "many eyes" when they would rather be suited for descriptions of swirls or continuous strands of light that are not static.

It has nothing to do with the Arctic and Aurora. Even the stars are more "rich" or brighter than A.Borealis. Such correlations are kinda desperate. Blindly going on about Arctic home this and Arctic home that is the same as "it was all in India - indigenous, OIT" stuff.

And, I'm sure that I don't need to remind you that this wasn't even written in the northern regions of Europe [and to be fair, the Antarctic regions since AB happens there as well, if I recall correctly] - in fact, aren't you the one who says that Mandala 10 is one of the newest Mandalas? Arctic home or not, the RV is limited to the Punjab and near surroundings, scripture-wise. Almost every single Indologist agrees.

'Keep off the she-wolf', the bears are in hibernation, wolf is still a danger.

How did you arrive at "the bears are in hibernation"?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Arctic home or not, the RV is limited to the Punjab and near surroundings, scripture-wise. Almost every single Indologist agrees.

Wait, so claiming that one mantram is more important than another "downplays the concept of the apaurusheya," yet claiming that the same scripture can be "limited" by a certain piece of land does not? What?

 

[Poeticus]

Wait, so claiming that one mantram is more important than another "downplays the concept of the apaurusheya," yet claiming that the same scripture can be "limited" by a certain piece of land does not? What?

For starters, the relation of mantras to one another is theological.

The conversation about geographical related phenomena is Indological.

Do you get the difference? Or, would you like a dissertation?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

For starters, the relation of mantras to one another is theological.

The conversation about geographical related phenomena is Indological.

Do you get the difference? Or, would you like a dissertation?

Indology or no indology, claiming that a sacred scripture that is said to be unauthored can be restricted to a certain region of the earth doesn't seem to make any coherent sense.

 

[Poeticus]

Indology or no indology, claiming that a sacred scripture that is said to be unauthored can be restricted to a certain region of the earth doesn't seem to make an coherent sense.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing and passing time or are you really trying to follow the conversation?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing and passing time or are you really trying to follow the conversation?

I dunno, what do you think?
BTW, do you like my signature??? Hmm....?

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Following the order adopted in the discussion of the Vedic evidence, we shall first take up the question of the ancient calendar, and see if the traditions preserved by the western Aryan races about the ancient year point out to any Arctic characteristics, such as the long dawn; the long day, the long night, or an annual period of sunshine of less than twelve months’ duration. We have seen that the Dawn is very often spoken of in the plural in the Ṛig-Veda and that a group of thirty Dawn-Sisters is actually described as moving round and round with one mind and in the same enclosure without being separated from each other, a phenomenon which is peculiar only to the Arctic regions. This Vedic account of the Dawn does not stand by itself.

Thus in the Lettish mythology, the Dawn is called 'diewo dukte', or the sky-daughter or the god-daughter, much in the same way as the Uṣhas is called 'divo duhitâ' in the Ṛig-Veda; “and the poets of the Lets speak likewise of many beautiful sky-daughters, or goddaughters 'diewo dukruzeles'.” Prof. Max Müller; further informs us that in the Greek mythology we can “easily find among the wives of Hêrakles, significant names, such as Auge (sun-light), Xanthis (yellow), Chrysêis (golden), Iole (violet), Aglaia (resplendent), and Eône, which cannot be separated from Eos, dawn.” The same story appears again in the Celtic mythology where Cuchulainn, the Sun-hero, is described as having a wife, who is variously named as Emer, Ethne Ingubai. Upon this Prof. Rhys observes that “it may be that the myth pictured the dawn not as one but as many to all of whom the Sun-god made love in the course of the three hundred and more days of the year.”

It has been shown previously that the description of the Vedic dawns, as a closely united band, precludes us from regarding them as three hundred and more dawns of the year; and that the only inference we can draw from a closely united group of dawns is that it represents the long and continuous Arctic dawn divided into a number of parts of twenty-four hours each for convenience. The description of the dawn in the Lettish mythology does not seem to be so full as that in the Vedas and by itself it may not be sufficient to indicate the Polar dawn; but considering the fact that the dawn is described as sky-daughter and spoken of in the plural by the poets of the Lets and the poets of the Ṛig-Veda alike, we may safely extend to the Lettish mythology the conclusion we have drawn from the more detailed description of the Dawn in the Ṛig-Veda, and the same may be said of the Celtic and the Greek stories of the dawn given above."
Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 12, Comparative Mythology, page 365

I am not making a definitive correlation. Only exploring the possibility. 'All her eyes', IMHO, certainly refers to stars. Stars are not brighter than Aurora Borialis. Aurora is a magnificient display.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0vuiWamTd8

Do we say 'Easy be thou for us to pass.' for an eight-hour night? Was this night difficult to pass? Why did the RigVedic Aryans so eagerly await the rise of the sun?

 

[Poeticus]

I dunno, what do you think?
BTW, do you like my signature??? Hmm....?

Yeah, it's a cool signature.

Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 12

Bāpu Tilak-Dādā Ki Jai!

There should seriously be an appreciation thread for Tilak-Dādā. Should I start one? Hm?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You can start with the Wikipedia page on BG Tilak.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks, MaitraVarunih, for your mention of Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak. I always wanted to read his first of the three books, ie, Gita Rahasya. Till now I had searched for it and had not found it. Today, I got it from Archives. I do not understand how I missed it all the time. I will now save it on my computer and read it. Knowing the analytical bent of Tilak Maharaj, I am sure that it will give me new insights. Thanks again. It is a thick 650 page book. It is an analysis and not a verse by verse translation. Will not be easy.

 

[Tyaga]

Pranam,

I think Tilak dates the Vedas to 4000 BCE,during the time of pre-mature Indus-Sarasvati civilization.So it would mean that ISC was already populated by Aryans during 4000 BCE.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tilak does not say that at that time they were in India. He proposes that they were in Kazakh and Russian steppes at that time. The Yavanas (Ionians) had not yet separated from the Indo-Iranian Aryans. That is why the Greek branch remembered Orion, the asterism in which the sun rose at that time on the day of vernal equinox, the beginning of the Aryan New Year. Etc.

 

[Tyaga]

Tilak does not say that at that time they were in India. He proposes that they were in Kazakh and Russian steppes at that time. The Yavanas (Ionians) had not yet separated from the Indo-Iranian Aryans. That is why the Greek branch remembered Orion, the asterism in which the sun rose at that time on the day of vernal equinox, the beginning of the Aryan New Year. Etc.

Namaste,


So is he claiming that RV is not composed in India at all?

 

[Aupmanyav]

He says part of it was composed out of India. The later books (scholars say books 1, 9, and 10) might have been composed in India. Since RigVeda is not chronologically arranged, it is not possible to know when a particular 'richa' was written. As you know, we have only a small part of RigVeda, a major portion has not survived.