Atiratra

[Tyaga]

He says part of it was composed out of India. The later books (scholars say books 1, 9, and 10) might have been composed in India. Since RigVeda is not chronologically arranged, it is not possible to know when a particular 'richa' was written. As you know, we have only a small part of RigVeda, a major portion has not survived.

Namaste,

AFAIK there is nothing in RV about such migration from the steppes to Punjab-Haryana region.

RV 6.61.12(from one of the earliest Mandala) states the five Vedic tribes dwelled near the banks of Sarasvati.And RV 7.96.2(again from one of the family Mandala) also suggests that the Purus(perhaps the most important Vedic tribe) also lived near the Sarasvati.Sarasvati river is identified with Ghaggar-Hakra which flows through Haryana.So it is safe to say that early parts of RV was composed in Haryana and not in steppes.

And yes,certain Vedic shakhas might have been lost,but even the current available vast corpus of Vedic scriptures have nothing on steppe homeland.

Even the Gandhara region only appears twice in the entire Chaturvedas,and it doesn't have much importance.All the importance is given to Punjab-Haryana region.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aryans named many rivers as 'Sarasvati', there is one in Iran and another in Afghanistan.

"Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).

Kocchar (1999) argues that the Helmand is identical to the early Rigvedic Sarasvati of suktas 2.41, 7.36 etc., and that the Nadistuti sukta (10.75) was composed centuries later, after an eastward migration of the bearers of the Rigvedic culture to the western Gangetic plain some 600 km to the east."
Sarasvati River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Poeticus]

Aup,

It's funny how I have to cite Witzel to counter your Arctic stance:

All these data cannot be just accidental or due to the imagination of Rgvedic and
BråhmaNa authors who looked for a prestigious origin of their lineage, tribe or culture: why
should they look outwards to the 'barbaric' countries of Central Asia/Iran/Afghanistan?49 The
center of the world was, even according to the later parts of the RV (3.53), on the Sarasvatī in Haryana.
This attitude continued to be the norm in the BråhmaNa period, and it is vaguely
remembered in the Påli canon; it clearly referred to even in the Manu-Smti (ch. 2). The
northwest, denigrated by the AV (5.22, PS 12.1-2), and depicted in Nirukta 2.2, cf. 3.18 and
in Patañjali's Mahåbhåshya (ed. Kielhorn, I p. 9) as occupied by Avestan speakers of the
Kamboja land in S.E. Afghanistan (Witzel 1980: 92), is regarded as non-årya.​

 

[Tyaga]

Aryans named many rivers as 'Sarasvati', there is one in Iran and another in Afghanistan.

"Sarasvatī is an exact cognate with Avestan Haraxvatī, perhaps originally referring to Arədvī Sūrā Anāhitā (modern Ardwisur Anahid), the Zoroastrian mythological world river, which would point to a common Indo-Iranian myth of a cosmic or mystical Sáras-vat-ī river. In the younger Avesta, Haraxvatī is Arachosia, a region described to be rich in rivers, and its Old Persian cognate Harauvati, which gave its name to the present-day Hārūt River in Afghanistan, may have referred to the entire Helmand drainage basin (the center of Arachosia).

Kocchar (1999) argues that the Helmand is identical to the early Rigvedic Sarasvati of suktas 2.41, 7.36 etc., and that the Nadistuti sukta (10.75) was composed centuries later, after an eastward migration of the bearers of the Rigvedic culture to the western Gangetic plain some 600 km to the east."
Sarasvati River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Namaste,

Yes,i'm aware of Haraxvaiti of Avesta.But this river is not Helmand,but the Arghandab river,a tiny tributary of Helmand.No way this tiny tributary could fit in the description of the mighty Vedic Sarasvati.

In RV,Sarasvati is clearly identified with Ghaggar-Hakra,since it is mentioned between Sutlej and Yamuna just like Ghaggar-Hakra is.

Also,like i said in the previous post north-western regions like Gandhara does not gain much importance and only mentioned twice in the entire Chaturvedic corpus.

 

[Tyaga]

Aup,

It's funny how I have to cite Witzel to counter your Arctic stance:

All these data cannot be just accidental or due to the imagination of Rgvedic and
BråhmaNa authors who looked for a prestigious origin of their lineage, tribe or culture: why
should they look outwards to the 'barbaric' countries of Central Asia/Iran/Afghanistan?49 The
center of the world was, even according to the later parts of the RV (3.53), on the Sarasvatī in Haryana.
This attitude continued to be the norm in the BråhmaNa period, and it is vaguely
remembered in the Påli canon; it clearly referred to even in the Manu-Smti (ch. 2). The
northwest, denigrated by the AV (5.22, PS 12.1-2), and depicted in Nirukta 2.2, cf. 3.18 and
in Patañjali's Mahåbhåshya (ed. Kielhorn, I p. 9) as occupied by Avestan speakers of the
Kamboja land in S.E. Afghanistan (Witzel 1980: 92), is regarded as non-årya.​

Oops, did he just call Kamboja-s and the rest as non-Arya? I think he did.

Namaste,


Also refer RV 3.23.4 where Sarasvati-Drishadvati-Apaya region (i.e modern Haryana) is called on as "best place on earth".

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. due to the imagination of Rgvedic and
BråhmaNa authors who looked for a prestigious origin of their lineage, tribe or culture: ..

I would term Witzel as a racist who thinks that prestige can come only from being Indo-European, and not from a people among whom these Indo-Europeans merged, accepted their Gods and Goddesses, and thus saved there culture from being completely erased as it happened in Europe and Central Asia. Zoroastrians have always been thankful to India. India saved the culture of Iranian and Indian Indo-Europeans. Thanks Bro.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Namaste,

Also refer RV 3.23.4 where Sarasvati-Drishadvati-Apaya region (i.e modern Haryana) is called on as "best place on earth".

People call the place where they live as the best place on Earth. Some times these best places do not always remain the best places on Earth. Many settlers of the Haryana region (Brahmavarta, Aryavarta) left the region when River Sarasvati dried up. Nearly 2,000 abandoned pre-historic settlements prove this. Avesta lists 16 best places on Earth. See Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 11, Avestic Evidence, Page 332.

 

[Tyaga]

People call the place where they live as the best place on Earth. Some times these best places do not always remain the best places on Earth. Many settlers of the Haryana region (Brahmavarta, Aryavarta) left the region when River Sarasvati dried up. Nearly 2,000 abandoned pre-historic settlements prove this.

Pranam,

So it means that Aryans lived near the Sarasvati river before it dried up at 1900 BCE

Avesta lists 16 best places on Earth.

Yes it does.It also mentions Vedic Sapta Sindhu.So the Iranians knew of Vedic homeland,while Vedic peoplle didn't knew anything about lands beyond south Asia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So it means that Aryans lived near the Sarasvati river before it dried up at 1900 BCE

Yes it does.It also mentions Vedic Sapta Sindhu.So the Iranians knew of Vedic homeland, while Vedic peoplle didn't knew anything about lands beyond south Asia.

1. Very likely. 2. If Zoroaster's books mention Sapta-Sindhu, it means Zoroaster's people had visited Punjab, did not like it because of heat or fever, and returned. That is my lay-man's explanation. As for Vedic people of Aryavarta, probably, they knew, but they were satisfied with their land and had no need to think of going anywhere else. After all, there were 2,000 settlements. Only the drying up of Sarasvati compelled them to move.

 

[Tyaga]

1. Very likely. 2. If Zoroaster's books mention Sapta-Sindhu, it means Zoroaster's people had visited Punjab, did not like it because of heat or fever, and returned. That is my lay-man's explanation. As for Vedic people of Aryavarta, probably, they knew, but they were satisfied with their land and had no need to think of going anywhere else. After all, there were 2,000 settlements. Only the drying up of Sarasvati compelled them to move.

So you accept that Harappan civilization was populated by Aryans,good.

And like i said in a previous post,the northern most area known to the Vedic people was Gandhara,and it only has single mention in the RV.In later texts,we find further Janapads like Uttarakuru,Uttaramadra,Kambojas etc who were located beyond Himalayas.So this implies that there was a gradual expansion from Sarasvati region to central Asia,in the late Vedic period.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Pranam,

So it means that Aryans lived near the Sarasvati river before it dried up at 1900 BCE



Yes it does.It also mentions Vedic Sapta Sindhu.So the Iranians knew of Vedic homeland,while Vedic peoplle didn't knew anything about lands beyond south Asia.

It's saptasindhavaH (or saptasindhubhiH, saptasindhubhyaH, saptasindhuShu, saptasindhUnAm, or saptasindhUn), but never written as saptasindhu, .

 

[Tyaga]

It's saptasindhavaH (or saptasindhubhiH, saptasindhubhyaH, saptasindhuShu, saptasindhUnAm, or saptasindhUn), but never written as saptasindhu, .

Namaste,

Indeed.Sapta Sindhu is a modern shortened form Avesta calls it as Hapta Hendu.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So you accept that Harappan civilization was populated by Aryans,good.

I won't say that it is settled, but yes, sure, it is a possibility.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So the Iranians knew of Vedic homeland, while Vedic people didn't knew anything about lands beyond south Asia.

Yes, basically they were the same people, had the same book at one time. That is why Vritraghna of the Vedas is Verethragna of the Gathas (Old stories). King of men, Yima of the Gathas made a Vera (Beda - enclosure, Punjabi) to keep representatives of the species in their universal flood story. Indo-Iranian Aryans. Some tribes went to Iran, others came to India. We knew about them, and they knew about us (and called us Hindus - of the Sindhu River). They must have traded with us through the Uttarapatha. At least, the Kambojas brought them fine horses. Soma also was brought from outside India. The description of Dasarajna war contains the names of various Iranian and Central Asian Aryan tribes who fought with Puru king Sudas.
Battle of the Ten Kings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Yes, basically they were the same people, had the same book at one time. That is why Vritraghna of the Vedas is Verethragna of the Gathas.

Actually, indra is not called vR^itraghna in the veda-s, he's called वृत्रह॑न्तमः
(vR^itrahántamaH, i.e. the one who is victorious over vR^itra); it's in the Zoroastrian texts (I think its the vahiShtoiShti gAthA) where he is referred to as varathrAghnAm (𐬬𐬆𐬭𐬆𐬚𐬭𐬀𐬖𐬥𐬀&#68392.

 

[Tyaga]

Yes, basically they were the same people, had the same book at one time. That is why Vritraghna of the Vedas is Verethragna of the Gathas (Old stories). King of men, Yima of the Gathas made a Vera (Beda - enclosure, Punjabi) to keep representatives of the species in their universal flood story. Indo-Iranian Aryans. Some tribes went to Iran, others came to India. We knew about them, and they knew about us (and called us Hindus - of the Sindhu River). They must have traded with us through the Uttarapatha. At least, the Kambojas brought them fine horses. Soma also was brought from outside India. The description of Dasarajna war contains the names of various Iranian and Central Asian Aryan tribes who fought with Puru king Sudas.
Battle of the Ten Kings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Namaste,


Indra has two aspects in Avesta.One,as you said,is Vritra slayer,Verethragna.While the other aspect being a Daeva(demon) along with other Vedic Gods like Sarva(Rudra,the archer) and Nasatyas.

And yes,i know about Yima Vara story.Keep in mind that Yima,although being the king of paradise,is also a sinner.

As for Kmabojas,they are first mentioned in Vamsha Brahmana i think.Yaska and Panini also quotes them.


Soma came from outside,yes.Mainly from Mujavant mountains,associated with Gandhara in the later Atharva Veda.It is clear that this land was alien to the Vedic Aryans,since it is spoken in an unfriendly manner.

And about Dasarajna,keep in mind that the battle took place near modern Parusni.RV does not mention these tribes coming from central Asia.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yima among Zoroastrians is the fourth King of Humans and Lord of Ancestors (Fravarshis).

Jamshid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The name Jamshid is originally a compound of two parts, Jam and shid, corresponding to the Avestan names Yima and Xšaēta, derived from the proto-Iranian Yamah Xšaitah. Yamah and the related Sanskrit Yama (colloquial Hindi - Jam) are interpreted as "the twin," perhaps reflecting an Indo-Iranian belief in a primordial Yama and Yami pair. By regular sound changes (y → j, and the loss of the final syllable) Avestan Yima became Middle Persian Jam, which was subsequently continued into New Persian.

There are also a few functional parallels between Avestan Yima and Sanskrit Yama, for instance, Yima was the son of Vivaŋghat, who in turn corresponds to the Vedic Vivasvat, "he who shines out", a divinity of the Sun. Both Yamas in Iranian and Indian myth guard Hell with the help of two four-eyed dogs.

Xšaitah meant "bright, shining" or "radiant" and is probably cognate with the Sanskrit word "Shrestha". By regular sound changes (initial xš → š (sh); ai → ē; t → d between vowels; and dropping of the final syllable) xšaitah became Persian shēd or shid. In the Western Iranian languages such as Persian, the vowel /ē/ is pronounced as /i/. Consequently, Jamshēd, as is pronounced in Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan is now pronounced Jamshid in Iran. The suffix -shid is the same as that found in other names such as khorshid ("the Sun" from Avestan hvarə-xšaēta "radiant Sun").

Yes, RV does not give information about the lands of the involved tribes, anybody's guess. I have found a new source: Vedic Names and Places. Will check that. All books are old. I do not think much research is being carried out these days (written by Mlechhas, as HLK says). I think I have read something about Druhyus outside India.

 

[Tyaga]

Yima among Zoroastrians is the fourth King of Humans and Lord of Ancestors (Fravarshis).

Jamshid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The name Jamshid is originally a compound of two parts, Jam and shid, corresponding to the Avestan names Yima and Xšaēta, derived from the proto-Iranian Yamah Xšaitah. Yamah and the related Sanskrit Yama (colloquial Hindi - Jam) are interpreted as "the twin," perhaps reflecting an Indo-Iranian belief in a primordial Yama and Yami pair. By regular sound changes (y → j, and the loss of the final syllable) Avestan Yima became Middle Persian Jam, which was subsequently continued into New Persian.

There are also a few functional parallels between Avestan Yima and Sanskrit Yama, for instance, Yima was the son of Vivaŋghat, who in turn corresponds to the Vedic Vivasvat, "he who shines out", a divinity of the Sun. Both Yamas in Iranian and Indian myth guard Hell with the help of two four-eyed dogs.

Xšaitah meant "bright, shining" or "radiant" and is probably cognate with the Sanskrit word "Shrestha". By regular sound changes (initial xš → š (sh); ai → ē; t → d between vowels; and dropping of the final syllable) xšaitah became Persian shēd or shid. In the Western Iranian languages such as Persian, the vowel /ē/ is pronounced as /i/. Consequently, Jamshēd, as is pronounced in Tajikistan, Pakistan and Afghanistan is now pronounced Jamshid in Iran. The suffix -shid is the same as that found in other names such as khorshid ("the Sun" from Avestan hvarə-xšaēta "radiant Sun").

Yes, RV does not give information about the lands of the involved tribes, anybody's guess. I have found a new source: Vedic Names and Places. Will check that. All books are old. I do not think much research is being carried out these days (written by Mlechhas, as HLK says). I think I have read something about Druhyus outside India.

Namaste,

Yes i know all this.But Yima is also a liar or sinner according to Avesta:

In whose reign there was neither cold wind nor hot wind, neither old age nor death, nor envy made by the Daevas, in the times before his lie, before he began to have delight in words of falsehood and untruth.

But when he began to find delight in words of falsehood and untruth, the Glory was seen to flee away from him in the shape of a bird. When his Glory had disappeared, then the great Yima Khshaeta, the good shepherd, trembled and was in sorrow before his foes; he was confounded, and laid him down on the ground.

AVESTA: KHORDA AVESTA (English): Zamyad Yasht ('Hymn to the Earth')

And Druhyus were from the line of Ailas,they were originally living in Punjab,but later moved to further north.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is the Indian record but where did Alexander find Drahaes? I am not able to trace it. He found Areias (Aryas) in Herat. The Greeks mention the Areian (Aryan) capital as Artacoana. In Alexander's time it was administered by a satrap called Satibarzanes (which corresponds to "Satya Vriddhi" in Sanskrit).

Hey, I see Mount Menaka in Jamshid Yasht or whatever it is. I will go through it. :surprise, not a surprise:

 

[Philomath]

Namaste,

Yes i know all this.But Yima is also a liar or sinner according to Avesta:



AVESTA: KHORDA AVESTA (English): Zamyad Yasht ('Hymn to the Earth')

And Druhyus were from the line of Ailas,they were originally living in Punjab,but later moved to further north.

What's Bharatism?