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Attention All Creationists, Here's Your Big Chance

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
“So offended”? No, I wasn’t, “so offended”. I simply found your comment to be rude and decided to tell you as much.

Furthermore, I’m not at all concerned with being perceived as right by those who don’t share my beliefs. I believe as I do and that’s my decision. As I stated before, there are worse things to be than wrong. For example, being a rude person who chooses to call the gods of others as “weak”.
I did not call any specific god weak. If someone identified their god as being that god would that not simply be them confirming my claim in regards to their own god?

And if you are not willing to support your claims why even post here? You can't really participate. There are plenty of Christians that do accept the theory of evolution. In fact there are far more Christians that accept it than atheists that accept it. When it was first proposed almost all that accepted it were Christians. They did not see it as a threat to their beliefs.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Oh sure, they got soft tissue, but then played that one off. They got some forms in amber, but still can't see what mated with what..... And the ones in aber look the same from the oldest one found for it to the youngest one found for it.

At least I'm not trying to do calculus when I'm still trying to add and subtract....

Cool. You made a false statement, and now I am the dumb one.
Too clever by one half.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
I did not call any specific god weak. If someone identified their god as being that god would that not simply be them confirming my claim in regards to their own god?

And if you are not willing to support your claims why even post here? You can't really participate. There are plenty of Christians that do accept the theory of evolution. In fact there are far more Christians that accept it than atheists that accept it. When it was first proposed almost all that accepted it were Christians. They did not see it as a threat to their beliefs.

Evolution does contradict the literal Biblical perspective of the Bible's mythological creation story; that's why Fundamentalist Christians can't accept evolution as a given fact.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Bad analogy. The problem is that some classification systems are inconsistent and others lead to categories that make people uncomfortable.

"Bad analogy"? Seriously? Has anyone ever failed to
go for that dodge?

Your "will remain human beings" is just
too vapid for further talk, math, notwith, as they
say, standing.

It is now dropped twice. Dont make me
go for three, I carry razors.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"Bad analogy"? Seriously? Has anyone ever failed to
go for that dodge?

Your "will remain human beings" is just
too vapid for further talk, math, notwith, as they
say, standing.

It is now dropped twice. Dont make me
go for three, I carry razors.

It was not a dodge. If you think so then you need to explain your poor analogy better. Perhaps there is an error in it.


And if we are done why do you keep bringing it back up? We will still be humans, though maybe in quite a different form. It is simply an observation and there is nothing vapid about it.
 

Sky Rivers

Active Member
I did not call any specific god weak. If someone identified their god as being that god would that not simply be them confirming my claim in regards to their own god?

And if you are not willing to support your claims why even post here? You can't really participate. There are plenty of Christians that do accept the theory of evolution. In fact there are far more Christians that accept it than atheists that accept it. When it was first proposed almost all that accepted it were Christians. They did not see it as a threat to their beliefs.

Enjoy your day and perhaps find a better pastime than what you’re currently engaged in with the Creationists and IDs here.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Enjoy your day and perhaps find a better pastime than what you’re currently engaged in with the Creationists and IDs here.

Good suggestion.

He's even branched out to work at discrediting his own
side.

I will let him have the last word ( even tho it is against
nature ) and the last shovel load outta his hole.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
What evolution?

Ahhh, you mean mistaken classifications....

Husky mates with Husky and produces only Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces only Mastiff. Only when Husky mates with Mastiff is variation (the Chinook) seen within the species. It comes into the record suddenly, with no single visible common ancestor. But this is important to understand. neither the Husky nor the Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. The Husky remained Husky and the Mastiff remained Mastiff.... Exactly what we observe in the fossil record....

I understand they merely have bones in the fossil record. They can not see what mated with what. If all they had were bones of the Husky, Mastiff and Chinook, and the Chinook appeared later in the stratum, they would conclude the Husky or Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. The common ancestor where the split occurred would be missing because it never existed....

The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species. ...:)

Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:

Chromosome 2 in humans

Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)

Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2
Chromosome2_merge.png

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent
 

Justatruthseeker

Active Member
The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species. ...:)
Well we can dismiss all that pseudoscience.....

You probably are not even aware that the genetic test that has been proven to show ancestry in a court of law has nothing in common with the pseudoscientific test they use to claim ancestry between Humans and Chimps. At least I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are unaware of the difference.

Tests proven to show ancestry do not snip out 16% of one subject genome and 23% of the other subject genome. They do not then use algorithms to randomly compare a segment of one genome to a random part of another genome... That's the ole bait and switch. Try to con people into believing that a known process proven to show relationship (the bait) is the same as a random test not proven to show relationship (the switch)....

But I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply assume you were unaware that the two tests are not even similar.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well we can dismiss all that pseudoscience.....

You probably are not even aware that the genetic test that has been proven to show ancestry in a court of law has nothing in common with the pseudoscientific test they use to claim ancestry between Humans and Chimps. At least I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are unaware of the difference.

Tests proven to show ancestry do not snip out 16% of one subject genome and 23% of the other subject genome. They do not then use algorithms to randomly compare a segment of one genome to a random part of another genome... That's the ole bait and switch. Try to con people into believing that a known process proven to show relationship (the bait) is the same as a random test not proven to show relationship (the switch)....

But I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply assume you were unaware that the two tests are not even similar.
Can you find a reliable source to support this claim? I doubt it since you failed to support your claim about ERV's at all.

You have a tendency to call science that is beyond your ken"pseudoscience ". It is almost as if you are admitting that you are wrong.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Well we can dismiss all that pseudoscience.....
And here we go...

You probably are not even aware that the genetic test that has been proven to show ancestry in a court of law has nothing in common with the pseudoscientific test they use to claim ancestry between Humans and Chimps. At least I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are unaware of the difference.

Tests proven to show ancestry do not snip out 16% of one subject genome and 23% of the other subject genome. They do not then use algorithms to randomly compare a segment of one genome to a random part of another genome... That's the ole bait and switch. Try to con people into believing that a known process proven to show relationship (the bait) is the same as a random test not proven to show relationship (the switch)....

But I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply assume you were unaware that the two tests are not even similar.

I am curious as to why you have continued to spread these false claims to now a second forum.

Rather than re-type a response, I will just copy-paste what I wrote to you on another forum when you posted these ignorance-based lies:

It may be noted that such claimed similarities is reliant upon taking snippets of code and randomly matching it to any random part of the genome it happens to match.
It may be noted that this is the claim of someone that has never done this sort of analysis, has had his errors/lies on this corrected before, yet feels compelled to make the same wrong claims again to prop up his religion of peace and love's ancient middle eastern numerology claims.

Relevant links are:

Incorrect Assumptions of Past Similarities

Incorrect Assumptions of Past Similarities

Short version - justatruthseeker the fake 'expert' on all science thinks that because creationist and oft-humiliated propagandist Jeff Tomkins declared that such analyses operate by 'taking snippets of code and randomly matching it to any random part of the genome it happens to match' that this is how they are all actually done.

As one that has performed such analyses, I can confidently say that this is NOT at all how such analyses are done - at least not by honest, competent people. In fact, I have never used BLAST to do ANY actual analyses, only to see if certain loci are available in a usable database, or to help finding good primer sites.

Perhaps justa could start here:

Creating Phylogenetic Trees from DNA Sequences | HHMI BioInteractive

to actually learn how these things are done.

Or, since justa like people to think he is some kind of wiz on these things, he could read something more advanced, like this:

Molecular Phylogenetics - Genomes - NCBI Bookshelf

Or, he can just keep thinking that his misinterpretation of a failed creationist geneticist's activist essay is how actual phylolgenetic analyses are done.

By the way, superstar - if these 'snippets' could match up with other 'snippets' haphazardly in a genome, they would be 1. too small to be of any use or 2. indicative of duplication events (but these would not be haphazard) or 3. be evidence of conserved loci (in which case no actual 'tree' would be produced).

But you know all this, right? You have to be just trolling, right?

Don't be fooled by the pseudoscience people.
Why would anyone be fooled by Tomkins' or any other creationists' pseudoscience?
To test for relationships no court of law would allow one to randomly match snippets of code to a random portion of another genome and get away with calling it a match...
Good thing that is not how anything in phylogenetics is done, I suppose.
They are trying to feed you a bait and switch, as if their random matching of code has any basis in actual DNA testing for relationship..... It is nothing even similar to what is done to test for relationships, that is known to work. Instead they talk of DNA matching (the bait), then use a totally random process correlated by algorithms (the switch) to convince you there is actually science involved.

All this dopey yammering tells me but one thing - that you simply do not understand any of this stuff. Just another yokel bellowing in the breeze.

One need only read these three partial abstracts to see tht 'random snippets' of DNA are not, at all, what is being analyzed here:

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it.

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.​
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Oh and Justa - can you tell us all about "continuous variation", please? I'm sure the folks here will want to gaze in awe at your acumen.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Husky mates with Husky and produces only Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces only Mastiff. When Husky mates with Mastiff we get the Chinook.
Which 2 dog breeds mated to produce Husky and how do you know?
Asian mates with Asian and produces only Asian. African mates with African and produces only African.
Which 2 human types mated to produce Asians and Africans in the first place? You just necessitated the pre-existence of 4 other human 'races' to get Asians and Africans. So, which 'races' mated to produce Asians and Africans?
Yet when Asian mates with African we get an Afro-Asian. They appear suddenly in the record where they did not appear before.....

Or any life you care to name.....
From your oft-quoted (but apparently never read or understood) Grant paper:

" Despite the low production of hybrids, by 2007, over 30% of the population of G. scandens possessed alleles whose origin could be traced back to G. fortis. The two populations had become more similar to each other morphologically and genetically..."

Sort of blows the whole Asians arose via hybridization (between which populations? He never says) thing out of the water - hybridization, according to justa's own citation, DECREASES variation, it does not create it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The evidence does not support evolution. Every single fossil creature remains the same from the oldest fossil found for that creature until it goes extinct. The only link between others is those claimed missing common ancestors that are missing for every single creature on every single tree for every single split.... We have creatures before the claimed split, we have creatures after the claimed split, but out of the billions of creatures that must have existed that split, not a single solitary one.

Instead we have exactly what we see with dogs. Husky mates with Husky and produces only Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces only Mastiff. When Husky mates with Mastiff we get the Chinook. It appears suddenly in the record where it never existed before. But this is important. Neither the Husky nor the Mastiff "evolved" into the Chinook... They just can't see what mated with what from a pile of bones and so incorrectly conclude one thing evolved into another..... calling what are merely breeds within the species separate species....

Or humans..... Asian mates with Asian and produces only Asian. African mates with African and produces only African. Yet when Asian mates with African we get an Afro-Asian. They appear suddenly in the record where they did not appear before.....

Or any life you care to name.....
This is nonsense that you've repeated many times. And has nothing to do with the thread topic.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
to reveal who the intelligent designer is.

176px-Europe_a_Prophecy%2C_copy_D%2C_object_1_%28Bentley_1%2C_Erdman_i%2C_Keynes_i%29_British_Museum.jpg

I offer this opportunity because internet sources that assert intelligent design are loathe to do so.

By the very nature of definition, "intelligent design" implies a designer. A conscious, thinking, powerful entity of some kind. Yet in all my searching on the internet no one can, or has dared to, reveal his identity. Is he someone who worked for god in the design department? Someone who struck out on his own, designed everything, which god then took credit for creating? or god himself? To my way of thinking, in as much as god is said to have created everything I would think the intelligent designer is god, yet none of these internet sources dare say so, or reveal some other identity.

So, here's your chance:

The Intelligent Designer of Intelligent Design is _______________________________________.

.




.

I am not sure that anyone who designed intelligent design can be called intelligent.

Ciao

- viole
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Got to love the YEC tendency to 'argue via mantra.' It doesn't work, and it just makes them look lazy and ignorant, but you got to love it.
Well we can dismiss all that pseudoscience.....
What was the pseudoscience?
You probably are not even aware that the genetic test that has been proven to show ancestry in a court of law has nothing in common with the pseudoscientific test they use to claim ancestry between Humans and Chimps.
Projection.

I already provided a link to a paper indicating what types of analyses are used in in courts (primarily RFLP) and another indicating that this technique has, in fact, been used in primate phylogeny and matches other analyses using other methods.

The fact that you of late resting your position on this foundation of ignorance and incompetence is of great entertainment value to me, but it is annoying to keep encountering it being repeated as if you'd not been refuted repeatedly already.

It is also true, as I mentioned before to you, that the methods that, for example, I have employed actually use more data in assessing phylogeny than does RFLP. But that doesn't fit your fantasy, so you ignore it.
At least I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are unaware of the difference.
How projective of you, seeing as how YOU don't understand.
Tests proven to show ancestry do not snip out 16% of one subject genome and 23% of the other subject genome.

Nothing but YEC pseudoscience does anything like that. But recall folks - this guy thinks that courts engage in direct whole genome comparisons...

They do not then use algorithms to randomly compare a segment of one genome to a random part of another genome.
Nobody does that. To claim otherwise is to lie, or to exhibit monumental mendacity and ignorance.
But I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and simply assume you were unaware that the two tests are not even similar.
Why do you lie with such frequency and self-righteousness? Does it make you feel like a special kind of creationist?
 
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