Avi's Economics Thread

[Avi1001]

Toyota stock took a hit this year, but I didn't sell and it is already recovering. They have better fundamentals in place than any other manufacturer. Good quality, reasonable price, low maintenance.

It is amazing it is over 40 years since the quality revolution in the '70s and we have still not caught up to the Japanese. It really makes me wonder......???

But Toyota had some recalls in the last couple of years that weren't exactly minor. Two of my friends had Camrays and they couldn't get rid of them fast enough.

BTW, I'll be leasing a Ford starting early next year, but I'm undecided on which model. Of course what helps my decision is two things: 1.my one son-in-law works for Ford at its international headquarters in Dearborn , and 2. s.e. Michigan lives or dies by the Big Three.

BTW, it also helps my decision considering I get a 10% discount on Fords because of my son-in-law.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The auto industry has participated in harming the economy by using bizarre auto parts that are difficult to change between vehicles, odd sizes of nuts and bolts, custom alternators, custom electronics, custom everything. It buys up disruptive patents and buries them. It is extremely anti-competitive, always working hard to keep new competitors from appearing.

Toyota have been the most system disruptive. Toyota with its more dependable vehicles has embarrassed the rest of the industry and both Toyota and Nissan were the major automakers who came out with hybrid vehicles first.

The other big names only followed suit, always behind the curve. They are so obviously not interested in fulfilling their roles as citizens of the world that considers them to be its citizens. They are more like parasites. In fact they part of the reason that unions have gotten a bad rap lately, what with the feckless long term strategies they have been using. Certain large USA auto makers are famous for inventing planned obsolescence. What jerks. :slap:

 

[Avi1001]

In recent years, the American auto industry has had the audacity to install high cost components that should be user replaceable, but are not.

Chevy had the gall to charge me $120 to replace a lightbulb that should have cost $15, but I could not get to it because of it's poorly designed location. That is essentially a reminder message......next car, buy Toyota !!

The auto industry has participated in harming the economy by using bizarre auto parts that are difficult to change between vehicles, odd sizes of nuts and bolts, custom alternators, custom electronics, custom everything. It buys up disruptive patents and buries them. It is extremely anti-competitive, always working hard to keep new competitors from appearing.

Toyota have been the most system disruptive. Toyota with its more dependable vehicles has embarrassed the rest of the industry and both Toyota and Nissan were the major automakers who came out with hybrid vehicles first.

The other big names only followed suit, always behind the curve. They are so obviously not interested in fulfilling their roles as citizens of the world that considers them to be its citizens. They are more like parasites. In fact they part of the reason that unions have gotten a bad rap lately, what with the feckless long term strategies they have been using.

 

[Revoltingest]

In recent years, the American auto industry has had the audacity to install high cost components that should be user replaceable, but are not.

Chevy had the gall to charge me $120 to replace a lightbulb that should have cost $15, but I could not get to it because of it's poorly designed location. That is essentially a reminder message......next car, buy Toyota !!

I have worked on:
Ford, Toyota, Duplex, Dodge, Rolls Royce, GM, Indian, Velocette, Triumph, Towmotor,
& a few other brands. All modern cars I've seen are difficult & spendy things to repair.
It has to do with short model life, too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down.
I b**** about it too. Research specific models before buying.

 

[Avi1001]

Cool, when I am ready to buy my next Rolls, I will check back with you.

I have worked on:
Ford, Toyota, Duplex, Dodge, Rolls Royce, GM, Indian, Velocette, Triumph, Towmotor,
& a few other brands. All modern cars I've seen are difficult & spendy things to repair.
It has to do with short model life, too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down.
I b**** about it too. Research specific models before buying.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have worked on:
Ford, Toyota, Duplex, Dodge, Rolls Royce, GM, Indian, Velocette, Triumph, Towmotor,
& a few other brands. All modern cars I've seen are difficult & spendy things to repair.
It has to do with short model life, too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down.
I b**** about it too. Research specific models before buying.

Objection, Your Honour. It is not due to "...too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down..." but due to USA voter inactivity, buyer negligence and the fact that auto manufacturers benefit from keeping a fast pace of releasing new but not technologically superior models, holding back technological process as much as possible -- as much as Toyota and Nissan will allow.

 

[Avi1001]

Good points, Brickj, but as I have stated before, the only decent American auto products are Chevy and Ford trucks, that's it. Not much to compete for.

Objection, Your Honour. It is not due to "...too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down..." but due to USA voter inactivity, buyer negligence and the fact that auto manufacturers benefit from keeping a fast pace of releasing new but not technologically superior models, holding back technological process as much as possible -- as much as Toyota and Nissan will allow.

 

[Revoltingest]

Objection, Your Honour. It is not due to "...too fast a design schedule, & keeping prices down..." but due to USA voter inactivity, buyer negligence and the fact that auto manufacturers benefit from keeping a fast pace of releasing new but not technologically superior models, holding back technological process as much as possible -- as much as Toyota and Nissan will allow.

Holding back tech progress? You've never worked in the industry then.
Introducing new technology is very risky. I've generally worked in advanced
design areas, & it's tougher than you might think to actually put it into a
product which would succeed in the market.

 

[Revoltingest]

Cool, when I am ready to buy my next Rolls, I will check back with you.

I only worked on the Phantom III model (1936-41).
The shop I worked for specialized in these.
I don't ever want to touch one again.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good points, Brickj, but as I have stated before, the only decent American auto products are Chevy and Ford trucks, that's it. Not much to compete for.

2014 Vehicle Dependability Study Press Release | J.D. Power
http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/awards-best-cars-and-top-10-lists/2000006743/

 

[Brickjectivity]

Holding back tech progress? You've never worked in the industry then.
Introducing new technology is very risky. I've generally worked in advanced
design areas, & it's tougher than you might think to actually put it into a
product which would succeed in the market.

Worked in the industry -- no. Met inventors -- yes. Read about inventions that have been bought to keep them off the market? Yes. By the way what happened to Mr. Delorean?

What we have here is not a refusal to innovate so much as a lack of character in upper management. The upper managers want to hire honest people that will lie for them which unfortunately is very difficult, and it backfires. You can't hire honest liars. Soon the upper managers don't have any idea what is going on in the lower echelons of their huge businesses. The liars they hire lie in both directions and the car companies become like a chicken with its head cut off. The upper managers dust their hands and say it isn't their fault that their companies have failed, but it is. Their companies become inefficient and bulky, full of paperwork, and checks and double checks designed to keep all the liars on the same team. Such a blob of course fails to be innovative and cannot really envision the future, cannot comprehend honesty, is sceptical about the future and generally unhealthy.

That's my analysis.

 

[Revoltingest]

Worked in the industry -- no. Met inventors -- yes. Read about inventions that have been bought to keep them off the market? Yes. By the way what happened to Mr. Delorean?

Well, despite a huge subsidy from Ireland, his quality troubles, high price, & arrest for drug trafficing left him bankrupt. The auto industry is a very capital intensive business, & tough to break into. This is a higher hurdle than any conspiriacy theory I've yet heard.

What we have here is not a refusal to innovate so much as a lack of character in upper management. The upper managers want to hire honest people that will lie for them which unfortunately is very difficult, and it backfires. You can't hire honest liars. Soon the upper managers don't have any idea what is going on in the lower echelons of their huge businesses. The liars they hire lie in both directions and the car companies become like a chicken with its head cut off. The upper managers dust their hands and say it isn't their fault that their companies have failed, but it is. Their companies become inefficient and bulky, full of paperwork, and checks and double checks designed to keep all the liars on the same team. Such a blob of course fails to be innovative and cannot really envision the future, cannot comprehend honesty, is sceptical about the future and generally unhealthy.
That's my analysis.

There are liars, incompetents & gold bricks in any organization. But there is a huge amount of innovation going on (if one is familiar with the technical aspects). I've watched the companies become less bulky over the last several decades.

Note: GM should'a put my air brake control system on their heavy trucks (1980ish).
I never found out why they didn't, so I can't address their reasoning.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Well, despite a huge subsidy from Ireland, his quality troubles, high price, & arrest for drug trafficing left him bankrupt. The auto industry is a very capital intensive business, & tough to break into. This is a higher hurdle than any conspiriacy theory I've yet heard.

I know very little except for some things somebody told me they had seen on the 700 Club which had him on as a guest.

There are liars, incompetents & gold bricks in any organization. But there is a huge amount of innovation going on (if one is familiar with the technical aspects). I've watched the companies become less bulky over the last several decades.

Ok, so you can't keep liars and incompetents out; but you can discourage the upper level managers from dishonesty. Look at the Koch brothers. We don't hear about them needing a bail out, and we don't here them complaining about how tough it is to innovate. They're bigger than any car biz and quite innovative.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know very little except for some things somebody told me they had seen on the 700 Club which had him on as a guest.

You know that's a comedy show, don't you?

Ok, so you can't keep liars and incompetents out; but you can discourage the upper level managers from dishonesty. Look at the Koch brothers. We don't hear about them needing a bail out, and we don't here them complaining about how tough it is to innovate. They're bigger than any car biz and quite innovative.

This is getting out of my area of expertise (minimal), since I've never worked in a Koch company.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You know that's a comedy show, don't you?

It is until you touch your TV screen with Pat.

This is getting out of my area of expertise (minimal), since I've never worked in a Koch company.

So you're just going to let me have the last word then, a word based upon a book I read written by one of the Koch brothers?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you're just going to let me have the last word then, a word based upon a book I read written by one of the Koch brothers?

Sure, why not.

 

[Avi1001]

2014 Vehicle Dependability Study Press Release | J.D. Power
KBB.com Awards and 10 Best Lists - Kelley Blue Book

Yup, pretty much as expected. Not many American cars above the median line. And it's been that way since the 70's. I can't figure out why it's taken us so long to be able to compete with Japanese cars. What a shame.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yup, pretty much as expected. Not many American cars above the median line. And it's been that way since the 70's. I can't figure out why it's taken us so long to be able to compete with Japanese cars. What a shame.

It's just not as bad as you say.
I notice Cadillac outranking Honda, Toyota & Acura in reliability.

 

[Avi1001]

True, I count 5 American vehicles I'm the top 16. Not great, but better than most would expect. Add to that professionalism in service, and it tips further away from American. So I guess if our goal is mediocrity, we have achieved it perfectly.

It's just not as bad as you say.
I notice Cadillac outranking Honda, Toyota & Acura in reliability.

 

[Revoltingest]

True, I count 5 American vehicles I'm the top 16. Not great, but better than most would expect. Add to that professionalism in service, and it tips further away from American. So I guess if our goal is mediocrity, we have achieved it perfectly.

Given the numbers of countries vigorously competing, having 5 in the top 16 doesn't look so bad.
And several of the foreign names there are making their cars in Americastan.