Baha'i and Messengers

[CG Didymus]

We have a pretty good idea what the Messengers said other than what the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings said, and it is up to your own understanding whether you like any of it.

If it's left up to our understanding? No, that's how we got all the different sects.

Okay, did Jesus say this?
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

This is particularly important for Baha'is. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then he didn't say this. If he didn't say this, then the gospel writer made it up and is lying.

This all has no bearing on the basic ethics and morality of Christianity or Judaism. All of the religions have the same spiritual message, but not the same dogma by the followers.

I thought it was about what a messenger said? And I do think Baha'is need to have a good answer for that question. And what could it be? The resurrection story is symbolic... So, a symbolically risen Jesus tells a symbolic disciple to touch his symbolic wounds to see that he is really symbolically alive and not a ghost.

I don't know. It sounds like that would be hard to do. Much easier just to say the gospel writers took the oral traditions about Jesus and fabricated a story about him that made him a virtual God. But... there were some pretty good spiritual lessons and some basic teachings about ethics and morality in that fabricated story. I don't see anything wrong with that. But Baha'is have already committed themselves to making the Bible and gospels and Jesus real and true... except not "literally" true or, sometimes, even real.

 

[Sheldon]

Not free from, just free.

Can you alter the outcome an omniscient deity would necessarily know must happen?

 

[KWED]

I do not believe for a second humans are animals. If you believe you are an animal that is of course up to you

It has nothing to do with "belief". It is a simple, biological fact. Humans are animals, just as chimps and lions and otters and eagles are.

Animal: A living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. (OED)

Are you claiming that description does not apply to you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not talking about infallible omniscience (although that also effectively fixes future outcomes). I am talking about predestination. When god decides the outcome of events.

"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled." - Bahaullah

"Fate is of two kinds: one is decreed, and the other is conditional or impending. The decreed fate is that which cannot change or be altered, and conditional fate is that which may occur." - Abdul Baha

Given this, where is the free-will to change that future?

Well done for taking the time to quote these passages.

The way I have read these passages say to me that the fate we cannot change is our material death in this world. We can pray to God to delay that fate, but we are told it is better to pray for God's Will to be done in this regard. In this age that also includes using medical sciences through the best of doctors.

The conditional and impending is where we can use free will. We are given this life to obtain spiritual limbs, that is obtain to a virtue and moral life, this is the born again option given in the Bible.

This capacity of free will also has to acknowledge that it has boundaries, as we are created as a human spirit that needs connection to the Holy Spirit via the Spirit of Faith. That is also Heaven and Hell. Heaven is the choice to embrace God and He'll is remoteness from God.

Big topic and the best explanations are given by Abdul'baha as to what Baha'u'llah meant.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I just dont need atheists to tell me what I can or can not believe in.

Why would you mentions something that hasn't happened, how on earth can anyone tell another what to believe anyway, the idea is almost Orwellian.

Or should or should not believe in. Because it suits or does not suit them.

You do grasp the nature of debate is argument, don't you?

Atheists has nothing to give that is worth listen to when it comes to spiritual lifestyle. Nada.

What a spectacularly stupid assertion. In other news water is wet.

If you don't want debate then that is your choice, but seeking it out, and then sulking when it produces views and ideas you don't like, is asinine. A bit like a deity with limitless power and knowledge placing a tree it doesn't want touched, firmly in harms way, then angrily cursing evolved apes because of it's own stupid error.

 

[F1fan]

The view a Baha'i has been given about the Messengers of God is that they are of an uncalcuable number, who are throughout all of creation.

And Baha'i believers could be wrong in judging these claims true. This view doesn't have facts behind it.

It can be seen as they are the stars of creation who's power comes from God. Each of these stars can be known by many names, but the source of their light is but one source, God.

But the people who believe this could be wrong.

So the names of God are incalculable.

That's bad luck.

Thus it is easy to see why a finite human mind limited to this world, can see that One Source of the light that shines upon us, as many sources. It is our attachment to names, or to specific attributes of a name, that cause the division. When we choose to see God is the source of all names, we in turn become one.

the human mind is sufficiently capable enough to understand there are no facts that there is anything beyond this world, namely some supernatural, spirit world ruled by a God. So you could be wrong. Theists are notoriously short on facts for claims like this.

Likewise, this topic has an incalculable ways of being presented and discussed.

Which includes ways from reason and objectivity, which has more credibility and truth on its side.

 

[Sheldon]

It has nothing to do with "belief". It is a simple, biological fact. Humans are animals, just as chimps and lions and otters and eagles are.

Animal: A living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. (OED)

Are you claiming that description does not apply to you?

I know right, you have to see the irony. It's a coincidence we share DNA with other animals as well I suppose, and the fossil record has been planted there deliberately by the devil, just to flummox us.

 

[Sheldon]

How much is it going to help an atheist in listening to a theist answer, when all you guys are going to do is to refuse what is said? Absolutely nothing at all.

You could offer something tangible, some objective fact, anything beyond woolly platitudes, or bare subjective anecdotes?

Honestly I do not think any of the Atheist in this thread is here to learn. Only to disturbe.

Listening doesn't necessarily infer agreement, you do understand this is a debate forum right? Disturbe (sic) what exactly, endless proselytising?

This is why there is no need to even try to explain anything more to you guys.

More? Nothing you have offered has any real explanatory powers, it is just an endless list of unevidenced claims in tandem.

 

[CG Didymus]

And the quotes of the Messengers are not very impressive. There's a serious lack of plans and information for a group that says they will unify the planet.

Well, the plan... Baha'u'llah told the leaders his plan. They pretty much rejected him. He said, "Fine, we try plan B." This plan is for lots of turmoil... WWI and WWII and all the other wars. Diseases and plagues. Natural disasters. At some point the people of the world will unite. That is the "lesser" peace. The Baha'is do have a plan...

Baha’i teachings contain a specific, detailed peace plan that recommends we take very concrete, achievable actions on both an individual and a societal level.​

This is their statement, The Promise of World Peace. The plan is all there. All we have to do is believe and trust them. Should be easy... get rid of our guns and love one another. But at a world-wide level.

 

[Sheldon]

You can think what you want. I am not scare of atheists. Just tired of you guys dont actually listen to what is told to you.

It must be tedious to come here expecting people to agree with you, only to find conjecture and debate. Oh wait, this is A DEBATE FORUM???

And just call it fallacy or wrong,

Well it either is a fallacious or not, and likewise you could address WHY others are citing what they think is errant in your posts, rather than sulking about it.

or cant be true because you can not understand that there is more to life then your eyse see, ( what spiritual people believe in)

Since that is your belief and claim, it is for you to demonstrate sufficient evidence to support it, and or rational argument. One cannot see what you do not offer.

This is why I no longer going to reply to you.

The end.

Well you are of course under no obligation to debate on here, but it's not the end, since this is a public debate forum, so others may be minded to examine the content here to that end.

 

[F1fan]

Well, the plan... Baha'u'llah told the leaders his plan. They pretty much rejected him. He said, "Fine, we try plan B." This plan is for lots of turmoil... WWI and WWII and all the other wars. Diseases and plagues. Natural disasters. At some point the people of the world will unite. That is the "lesser" peace. The Baha'is do have a plan...

Baha’i teachings contain a specific, detailed peace plan that recommends we take very concrete, achievable actions on both an individual and a societal level.​

This is their statement, The Promise of World Peace. The plan is all there. All we have to do is believe and trust them. Should be easy... get rid of our guns and love one another. But at a world-wide level.

I'll check out the links. I have seen some of the IDEALS that Baha'i want which is the goal. I haven't seen them post any actual, serious, workable methods to make it happen, which is what I am curious to read about.

For example, a plan for world peace would be to get Baha'i followers in significant positions of leadership in world governments. Still, the people may rise up and cause trouble (like trump followers on Jan 6, as an example).

 

[CG Didymus]

Matt 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The gospel certainly had not been preached to the whole world 150 years ago.

Like I said, I'll be in less trouble if the Baha'is are right. But, still, there's just too many loose ends.

 

[Sheldon]

I


This is a fundamentally wrong assumption about the way God works the plan for humanity. Our fate is in our hands.

Prior knowledge of an event is not its cause. What can be done is plan for those events, all the while giving us free will choice.

As God knows the endgame, God can give us the required choices to divert our own destructive mind.

It is sad to see men choose predudices, greed and war when there is always the choice not to.

Regards Tony

Law of noncontradiction

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, the plan... Baha'u'llah told the leaders his plan. They pretty much rejected him. He said, "Fine, we try plan B." This plan is for lots of turmoil... WWI and WWII and all the other wars. Diseases and plagues. Natural disasters. At some point the people of the world will unite. That is the "lesser" peace. The Baha'is do have a plan...

Baha’i teachings contain a specific, detailed peace plan that recommends we take very concrete, achievable actions on both an individual and a societal level.​

This is their statement, The Promise of World Peace. The plan is all there. All we have to do is believe and trust them. Should be easy... get rid of our guns and love one another. But at a world-wide level.

Such it is to have been given a free will choice.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

The Plan.

The plan is really just a set of goals and ideals. The page is surprisingly short. It offers no methods or strategies of to actually achieve the goals outlined on the Baha'i website. Many of the issues will challenge status quo cultural beliefs and prejudices. Dealing with these requires a serious improvement in the mental health of global citizens. Where is the plan to improve mental health?

Many would probably agree with the majority of what it states. The irony is that the list appeals to reason while having a religious framework that demands faith. It would work better having an objective, secular approach.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus was resurrected in a glorified and incorruptible and immortal body which He still has. He was a human and rose as a human.
I think you are taking John 6:63 out of context and giving it a meaning it did not have.
Actually the Spirit will give life to the mortal bodies of those who have the Spirit dwelling in them. (Romans 8:11)
It is when our body is redeemed ( raised from the dead) that our adoption as God's children is complete.

Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

Baha'is believe Jesus was virgin born. What would it have hurt for them to say that Jesus also rose from the dead? I guess they had to draw the line somewhere and making Jesus dead and gone was the best way to do it.

 

[F1fan]

Another approach is to not have a new religion, but to be a humanist group that sets out to appeal to the more "love and peace" elements of various religions and use this as internal pressure to global societies to make the changes that Baha'i want. Some posters have tried this, but are still emphasizing Baha'i too much for other theists to feel comfortable.

 

[CG Didymus]

That you have plagiarized from Hinduism. Kaliyuga for 432,000 years. Why would a manifestation be under any shadow? Show me where is that written. Don't make random claims out of ...
In time, some very quickly and some late, all messages are corrupted. You make claims that perhaps not even Bahaollah made. Bahaollah never said that Krishna and Buddha are manifestations of Allah. His message was corrupted by Abdul Baha and Shoghi. That is what happened to the messages of earlier manifestations as per your own view. They too had their own covenants.

What's weird is the previous cycle is named after Adam? As if Adam was a real person. But, then again, as usual, they don't believe the Bible story about Adam. But he was a convenient person to throw out there as the person that started the last cycle.

 

[CG Didymus]

I seriously doubt they were very successful. In village India, they'll 'convert' to anything to please the guest. But once that guest is gone, they revert. I remember an anthropology study from my university days, where westerners, concerned about India's population, went to villages and gave out free birth control pills, explaining how they worked, etc. On follow-up trips, they discovered that the pills had transformed into a local form of currency, were being traded, and collected. The entire point of the lesson was on how outsiders may think they understand a small culture, they really don't.

(The reason they weren't being used was because one child, if successful at school, or athletics, can change the life of the family entirely. So each new child is like a lottery ticket.)

Of course in Baha'i statistics, all these villages are counted. It explains why the Baha'i figures show 2 million, and the government of India census has the Baha'i population at less than 5000.

What I liked about that article was how Rama had to be added in. So, who will be added to the list of "manifestations" in the next village? Here's a little more on how they stopped using the name, "Baha'u'llah".

Accusations were made that Baha'u'llah was an Islamic prophet and that Hindu villagers would eventually be forced to eat the holy mother cow (24*) The situation became serious enough that reference was made to it in a National Spiritual Assembly letter dated December 10, 1963 which stated among other things that several Baha'i teachers were "touring the erupting area at a great personal hazard."(25*)

One of the main problems in this regard, of course, is that the title Baha'u'llah is itself indicative of an Islamic identification. Consequently one of the fundamental linguistic changes apparent in many of the bhajans created during this time was the substitution of the Sanskritic term Bhagavan for the Arabic Allah. Bhagavan is related to the words bhajan and bhakti in that they are all derived from the same Sanskrit root bhaj (to partake of, as in participation in a religious rite). An early Vedic god, Bhaga was probably so named because of a connection to such rites, and by the medieval period Bhagavan had become to mean Supreme Being and was often associated with devotional movements connected with Rama and Krishna. In Malwa villages, therefore, Bhagavan would not only be used to refer to God per se (Allah) but to his avatars as well. This dual usage was reflected in one bhajan where at one point we hear the line: "Bhagavan has said that he will return in every age to restore righteousness" and then later: "We must spread the news of Bhagavan Baha" (26*) Baha'u'llah thus becomes Bhagavan Baha, a title no doubt much more congenial to the Hindu villager's ear and perhaps more befitting of the kalkin avatar:

• 
  "Oh sing the praises of Bhagavan Baha, Oh sing the peace message of Bhagavan Baha, Oh manifest today the shelter of Bhagavan Baha."
  

All's fair in trying to make converts, I guess.

 

[CG Didymus]

So one can only see the evidence for god if one believes god exists.
Makes sense.

Well if you dont believe God exist, He could stand in front of you, and you would not believe it was God.
So faith and belief does lead toward understanding and seeing God, yes

But belief in which God? Some people believe the God of Islam is a false God. But I do think that whatever concept of God a person believes in, they will see the proof and evidence they need to keep believing in that God.