Baha'i and Messengers

[CG Didymus]

Who is coming then? Certainly not a Person by the name of Christ!

Mark 13:21

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

So when Christ returns and people say here or there is Christ the Bible says not to believe them. The Baha’is are not saying here is Christ or there is Christ.

Then if Christ will not be called Christ when He returns what will be His Name?

It’s not a Baha’i interpretation. Mark 13:21 explicitly states not to believe those saying ‘here is Christ because He will have a new name according to Revelation.

This is what the Bible says not any interpretation.

I swear just a while back a Baha'i was saying all the manifestations were "Christs" or "Messiahs" or "Anointed Ones." And I'd agree with that if Baha'u'llah is the truth, then he is the return of Christ. He is The Messiah. And maybe he is.

But the NT, as if we really believe it, says that if there are still wars going on then that is not yet the end. But why believe anything the NT says? If we're not going to believe everything. It don't work just to pull verses we like and use them and reject or ignore the rest.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible has given us the key.

Matthew 7

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Regards Tony

Same thing... Why quote verses in the Bible and the NT only when it suits you. If you don't believe all of it, don't cherry-pick it.

And if we did the "good" fruit thing, which religion would have more good fruit than bad fruit? Actually, I think we need a category of just bland, no taste, no substance fruit to represent all the nominal believers in each religion. Plus, a category for religions that have lots of good fruit, but they are based on false beliefs. Which could be any of the several Trinitarian Christian sects.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I swear just a while back a Baha'i was saying all the manifestations were "Christs" or "Messiahs" or "Anointed Ones." And I'd agree with that if Baha'u'llah is the truth, then he is the return of Christ. He is The Messiah. And maybe he is.

But the NT, as if we really believe it, says that if there are still wars going on then that is not yet the end. But why believe anything the NT says? If we're not going to believe everything. It don't work just to pull verses we like and use them and reject or ignore the rest.

I think it’s also a warning not to follow the interpretations of the sects of Christianity as they all maintain they have the true Christ. But Christ in the end times won’t be called Christ according to Revelation 3:12.

Which verse in the NT are you referring to?

 

[Truthseeker]

This is an incredulity fallacy with implied special pleading. The first part is, "I just can't believe a cell can organize from ingredients, therefore it didn't."

I was agreeing Audie in that post, she is an atheist. You are taking this out of context. Somehow the first cell came into being, but it didn't start with a set of organic ingredients only. No one knows, as far as I know what happened before the cell first appeared. But I am not saying that God created the first cell out of organic ingredients. Probably not. But I don't know. It's all right to say I don't know.

Probably there was a structure that evolved into a cell. Think of it, there had to evolved a cell membrane, DNA that divided in a process called mitosis I believe. If a cell can't replicate, it will eventually die and there will no cells anymore. It's all very mysterious.

The universe evolves in a natural process that God doesn't interfere with is my belief.

He does interfere in a spiritual way, but not a material way in my belief.

 

[Brian2]

WWEEEELLLLLL, there ARE two separate scriptures in the Bible, in which God Himself is declaring that HE ALONE is the ONLY GOD anyone shall need, as well as the ONLY SAVIOR, anyone shall need.

So much for Jesus being the ONLY one that can do that......Ehhh?

It makes sense if Jesus also is YHWH.
After all Jesus has the name which is above all names and He and the Father are one (one thing that is).

 

[CG Didymus]

He delivered some from themselves.

We all know the story. The writers of the NT, mostly Paul, make it out to be that Adam sinned and we all are born with a sin nature because of that. Then Jesus paid the penalty for that sin. And if we accept that free gift of salvation by accepting Jesus as our savior, our sins will be forgiven. I don't think Baha'is believe that. And I don't blame them. But I do blame them for coming up with their own version of who Jesus is and what he did, and then they ignore the NT version.

The Baha'i version still gives the impression that Baha'is love and believe in Jesus, but it's not the same Jesus that a Christian believes in. They are not the same thing. And the Baha'i version is in many ways more sensible and believable, because the Christian version has him doing all the healings, casting out demons, and rising from the dead.

Who, other than Christians is going to believe that stuff? But still, if Baha'is aren't going to believe the stories in the NT, they shouldn't praise it as much as they do. It becomes a book of fiction. Tall tales of dying and rising God/man. God's Son fighting and defeating the evil Satan, God's archenemy.

But Baha'is do praise it. And those unbelievable stories are explained away by saying they were meant to be taken symbolically. And that's one thing I don't agree with. I think they were told to be believed by the people. To get them to think that Jesus is from an all-powerful God. Made up embellishments or totally true, either one is okay with me. But to think that the writers came up with some profound symbolic story but made it sound exactly like an historical event? That sounds more unbelievable than believing the parting of the seas or rising from the dead.

Like Abdul Baha's interpretation of the resurrection. That the disciples are the body of Christ, and they were all feeling bad, because Jesus had died. But they remembered all the wonderful things he said and what out and started telling others about the love of God... and thus brought life back into the body of Christ. If it didn't really happen then, it's easier for me to believe that oral traditions developed about Jesus rising from the dead. And several years later those stories got written down. But if it didn't happen it was made up. It's fiction. Or worse, a lie and a hoax. But it was believed and became part of traditional Christian beliefs... that Jesus rose from the dead.

Baha'is don't go around saying that stories of other dying and rising God/man in other religions were symbolically true but not literally true. They probably believe like most of us that those stories were never true. They were myth. And sure, there was some kind of meaning. But I think it was more obvious and simple. Evil can't conquer good. Even when evil thinks it has destroyed good, good rises again.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh dear.

Regards Tony

Yes, it's time to give us a quote about the Baha'is belief about Satan.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, it's time to give us a quote about the Baha'is belief about Satan.

No it's time to leave RF.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

Baha’u’llah has done this most definitely. I have received my reward which is greater than all the wealth in earth and heaven.

OK you are one person but the other billions alive and who have ever lived are still waiting. Jesus is to come and judge all people, the living and the dead and bring death to an end.

Also, Christ specifically warned of Prophets bearing the name ‘Christ’ in the last days and said not to believe.

Mark 13:21

And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Look, there He is’; do not believe it;

He comes with a New Name

Rev 3:11-12

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Nobody is going to know or understand that name. (Rev 19:12)
The warning in Mark 13 is not about people calling the return of Jesus, the return of the Christ. If that were the case then Baha'is also would be in trouble because that is what they call Baha'u'llah.
The warning is about people who say "Look, here He is". (as people did when Baha'u'llah showed up and as even Baha'u'llah did when he started writing to leaders saying "Look I have arrived, look over here, why don't you acknowledge me.")
In other parallel passages to Mark 13:21 it goes on to suggest that when He returns people will not have to say "Here He is" because all will know just as they can see the lightning light up the whole sky.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. – Revelation 21:23.
In the 1858 Arabic Bible that verse says “Baha’u’llah did lighten it”.
It was printed in the London 1671 (1858) edition of the William Watts Arabic Bible for Eastern Churches.”

Yes Baha'u'llah means "glory of God" and everywhere the Bible says "Glory of God" or something close, the Baha'is say it must be referring to Baha'u'llah.
Actually when you read Rev 21:23 without reading Baha'u'llah into it we can see that it is the Lamb (Jesus) who is the "glory of the Lord" and who lights the city.
And yes the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world is Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

You have so much to unravel and it is a tangled web that has been woven.
For me, I don't have to bother unravelling anything because I accept what Jesus said about false Christs and false prophets and so I know that Baha'u'llah is not the return of Jesus.
Interestingly this seems to help me read what the Bible actually says and not come up with something different.
Jesus did not say that He would return as the Father.
Jesus did not say He had to go away so that the Father could come.
Jesus did not say that the Father would have a new name, a name we would only accept if we accepted the Father.
All your unravelling has only caused you to make the tangled web woven by Satan even more tangled.

If I asked you who is the Lamb of God in Revelation, I'll bet you wouldn't hesitate to say, "Jesus". But Baha'is aren't sure. Some say The Bab is the Lamb that was slain. But the Lamb is the main character in Revelation. If it's anybody in the Baha'i Faith, it would have to be Baha'u'llah. But they don't know. And the context makes it sound like Jesus. So, the best they can do is keep pointing out the guy on the white horse comes with a new name.

 

[CG Didymus]

No it's time to leave RF.

Regards Tony

And what good is that going to do? If the Baha'i Faith is the truth, Baha'is should be here telling us all about that truth. If I were a Baha'i I'd pray about it, talk to other Baha'is, and figure out a way to connect with people that don't believe like you. I keep saying that other than believing in God and his messengers, Baha'is have a lot in common with Atheists. Why keep trying to "prove" God?

Another problem that Christians have also is that everything is about Baha'u'llah and how great the writings are. Just like Christians say how great Jesus and the Bible is. Then... all we have to do is find something weird in the Bible or Baha'i writings and say, "See. See how dumb this is. How can this be from God." And Baha'is probably get right on board with us about how Christians take the Bible so literally. We say, "A world-wide flood? Seriously? You expect me to believe that?" Then the Christian is stuck trying to prove the Bible story about the flood is true.

With Baha'is it seems like the main thing is that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation/messenger of God. You can prove it to yourself. You see evidence that convinces you that it's true. But after hundreds of pages of posts, it is obviously something that you can't prove to others. Why keep trying? What else you got? Like I've asked before when you talk to Christians is the first thing you say, "Did you know Christ has already returned"?

Baha'is have already put up some barriers. And it's Baha'is that will have to figure out how to knock them down. You know you're coming in with two strikes on you already. You know lots of us have had several people hit us with their religious stories. They all tell us that they are telling us the truth. That their beliefs changed their lives. We've heard that already. What do Baha'is have that's different? What do they have that's better?

But, who knows, maybe later some time you'll run into somebody that says, "So your Tony, Transmuting Soul. I used to argue with you all the time on RF. Where you been? I missed you. And guess what? Because of you I started reading the Baha'i writing and I've been a Baha'i now for two years." I think you'd be missed.

 

[CG Didymus]

Which verse in the NT are you referring to?

Matthew 24:4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.​

 

[Brian2]

Jesus is not God, never was and never will be. Only God is God.
Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God as mentioned throughout the Bible prophecies.

No the glory of God is the Glory of God and Baha'u'llah just means "glory of God".

That is correct, because the Son does not return at all, since He never promised to return.

Jesus said that He would return and all the New Testament also says the same.

Daniel 7:13-14

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

Jesus is given an everlasting dominion of an everlasting Kingdom at Dan 7 when He went to heaven as one like the Son of Man. He was one like the son of man because He had His new and immortal body which was like the earthly body but not.

John 18:36

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus Kingdom is not one that was begun on earth, it is one begun in heaven and so it is not "of this world".

No, that is not ever going to happen because Jesus never promised to return, nor was it ever in the Will of God to send Jesus back to earth. Jesus finished His work on earth and that is why Jesus said He was 'no more' in the world.
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

Jesus while speaking to His disciples said John 16:16 In a little while you will see Me no more, and then after a little while you will see Me.”

So when Jesus said that the world will see Him no more, that does not mean that it will never see Him again. The disciples saw Him again after He said that they would see Him no more.
And of course Jesus said that He would return and that everyone would see Him. Can't get any plainer. But the plainer it is the more you say it doesn't mean it.

The Bible proves that the same Jesus is not coming back, so I do not need the Baha'i Writings.

The Bible SAYS that the SAME JESUS that the disciples SAW go into heaven would RETURN the SAME WAY they had SEEN HIM GO. (Acts 1)
Sort of eliminates Baha'u'llah from the start really, but you ignore that and start saying the Bible is wrong and that it does not mean that. I don't need to say anything else to eliminate Baha'u'llah from being the return of Jesus.

The same Jesus was never slated to return. The angels did not see a body go up, they saw the spirit of Jesus go up.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

As you can see the disciples saw Jesus going up. Hence they saw a body go up, the same body He had been resurrected into.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

Coughing and LOL and crying at the same time.

 

[Brian2]

No, Jesus said that He had to go away do He could send the Comforter from the Father.
Jesus was a Comforter, Baha'u'llah was another Comforter.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Yes as John 14:26, 15:26 say the Comforter is the Spirit of Truth and is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is He whom was sent to those disciples to whom Jesus promised, at Pentecost. Baha'u'llah did not come to those disciples and so is eliminated as being the Comforter and Spirit of Truth.

Sadly, Christians do not bother to think about what these verses actually mean -- what the Spirit saith unto the churches -- yet they have completely disregarded what the Spirit said because they STILL believe that the same Jesus is going to come down from heaven on the clouds.

The Lord Jesus obviously has not returned yet and so He will come in the future.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

No doubt you say that "Lord Jesus" means Baha'u'llah.

 

[Brian2]

If I asked you who is the Lamb of God in Revelation, I'll bet you wouldn't hesitate to say, "Jesus". But Baha'is aren't sure. Some say The Bab is the Lamb that was slain. But the Lamb is the main character in Revelation. If it's anybody in the Baha'i Faith, it would have to be Baha'u'llah. But they don't know. And the context makes it sound like Jesus. So, the best they can do is keep pointing out the guy on the white horse comes with a new name.

And the guy on the white horse is the Word of God (John 1:1) and His new name is a name that only He knows.
And the Son is the one who is going to do the judging (John 5)and He is the King of Kings. The one to rule with an iron sceptre is the Son.(Psalm 2:9)
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Whatever he want to convey and have accepted by people who are not just willing to accept a human being at his word. I have no reason to think that Baháʼu'lláh 'claims have any connection to reality.

So, subvert free-will?

How does it subvert free will to give evidence that a "message" is authentic -- and desirable? Is one still not free to say, "okay, but I don't give a darn?"

 

[F1fan]

I think it’s also a warning not to follow the interpretations of the sects of Christianity as they all maintain they have the true Christ. But Christ in the end times won’t be called Christ according to Revelation 3:12.

This is a good point. Intepreting the Bible is a free-for-all. The Bible itself offers no standard or method to discern "good fruit" from "bad fruit". Everyone thinks they're good fruit. The KKK is a Christian organization. The Confederate South slave owners were Baptists. This is a major weakness in the bible, having no way for believers to self-reflect and examine what is good and what is bad. It's all quite vague. Why have a bible at all if everyone is left to their own moral sense and wits, and a many of them the bad fruit warned about and have no clue?

 

[F1fan]

The Key to understanding about God I believe, is the Word of God, which in this Day is the Word of Baha’u’llah.

First, we can understand a character of a God as spelled out in stories and religion. This doesn't imply this is a real God any more than reading Lord of the Rings implies there are actually Hobbits, elves, and wizards. We understand a lot about Hobbits, elves and wizards from reading these tests by Tolkien.

Second, there are many depictions of this God in literature that are not consistent. The Old Testament is not consistent with the New Testament. The Quran rejects certain beliefs of Christians and Jews about God. The Mormon Bible has it's own description of God, as does your Baha'i texts and the massive Urantia book, over 2000 pages. So what is there to understand about this God except that is changes with the times and cultures? Have you looked into the Urantia book since it is a more recent revelation than the Baha'i texts? If not, then aren't you opening yourself to condemnation for not being open to the latest revelation? The Urantia book is thick, and it goes into a lot of detail about God and Jesus, along with other things about the universe. Why aren't you reading it to understand the latest version of god that is offered by messengers?

I believe God exists because of my knowledge of the Manifestations of God, their Lives and Teachings and studying the Word of God. (Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Muhammad, Zoroaster, the Bab, Baha’u’llah)

And why did you decide a God exists? When did you decide it exists? Did anyone tell you a God exists, and if so, why did you believe these people? Did you subject their claims to scrutiny and doubt?

You have the capacity for reason and using facts to make sound, reliable judgment, did you use it?

The most reliable method to make accurate conclusions I believe is by reflecting on the Words of Baha’u’llah. I decided God existed when I read the Words of Baha’u’llah especially His Book of Certitude.

OK, reflecting. Explain in detail what reflecting entails, and include how it is reliable and not a process that gives in to what feels good to the ego. Give us a step by step process of reflecting that self-checks itself from error. You say it's reliable, so give us that standard. It must be better than reasoning via facts since you are heavily critical of this approach, so I wait to see this superior method you have to offer us.

The Key to open my mind and heart was the Word of God. It changed my life completely. That is the ‘key’ for unlocking the minds and hearts. Unless one studies it, they are unlikely to be able to accept God and His Prophets.

OK, what exactly is unlocked in minds and hearts? Explain how this is reliable and objective, and not something that makes a person gullible to belief in dogma.

I was once a very staunch atheist. It was the Words of Baha’u’llah which transformed me into a devout believer.

I suspect you were just not religious. Atheists tend to have a very astute and reasoned basis for their rejection of irrational concepts of many different types, religion being one category.

Let me ask you this, was there a emotionally traumatic event that happened when you "found" God?

 

[SlaveofShinri]

The Truth places a message in everyone’s soul, why should we look to external realities, the words of dead old men who can’t speak to the current conditions?

 

[F1fan]

The Truth places a message in everyone’s soul, why should we look to external realities, the words of dead old men who can’t speak to the current conditions?

Explain in detail what the Truth is. Your post is vague.

What is this message. This shouldn't be a secret, right?