Ban the Burqa

[Badran]

Hehe. This isn't just a phenomena in Islamophobic Non-Muslim counties... See this interesting bit of news from the Middle East.

Syria bans the burka and niqab in universities | Mail Online

I guess they don't understand Islam either....

Sort of weird news from a secular country that is 87% Muslim.

Yeah i read about this just recently. Its not surprising as Syria is not the only government who have this sentiment. I heard (here also in the forum) that in Tunisia its the same. The problem is not the ban in itself, its the reasons. Not once is a good reason given to make it illegal.

I personally don't think women should cover their faces, and i'm actually kind of against it, because i think its made up, i don't believe its part of the teachings of my religion at all. But, i wouldn't force women not to wear it. I would be more in favor of trying to convince people that this is unnecessary. But to force women not to wear something, i've got to have a better reason than that.

 

[dmgdnooc]

I found this to be an interesting and important article that expresses many of the feelings I have about this practice. Just curious what thoughts any of you may have on the subject......

Ban the Burqa - Claire Berlinski - National Review Online

I tend to go with this Muslim woman's view.
Burka ban: Why must I cast off the veil? - Telegraph
　
The push to ban the burqa, imo, is motivated by security concerns not libertarian values.
Biometrics is the current flavour of choice for those who desire to track and control individuals as they move through the vast mass of humanity.
Face recognition software is the preferred method of achieving the desired level of control.
　
As we speak every major airport in the world has installed, is installing, or is planning the installation of, biometric readers to scan each and every individual that moves through their gates.
The technology can, in due course, be piggy-backed onto the current ubiquitous cctv coverage of public spaces.
Any person with their face covered, for whatever reason, will not be recognised by these systems and would remain anonymous.
Anonymity finds no place, no reason to exist, in the world of 'security concerns'.
　
The public discourse on the matter has been generated by 'security concerns' and shaped into a ban/no ban scenario that allows for no intermediate or alternative position and applies emotional leverage on all the participants.
I find that other strategies that might address the security concerns are, for all intents and purposes, not permitted entry to the public discourse.
　
In short, imo, fear has ruled the West in its thinking on this matter.
That Syria has readily and wholly adopted the West's politics on the burqa only serves to reinforce my opinion.
　

 

[sandandfoam]

I was listening to a program on the radio yesterday about human trafficing into Europe and of the many many women forced into lives of prostitution.
Misogyny and abuse of women is alive and well in 'The West' and as far as I can see banning an article of clothing isn't doing anything to help anyone.

 

[gnostic]

Really? I thought in secular societies, people have the right to practice the aspects of their religion. You'd expect at least that women should be allowed to wear what they want. Enforcing on women how to dress is the actual clear oppression.

True.

When government, society or religion are telling what women should or should not wear, it is a sign of oppression.

If a secular society wants to ban a woman who chooses freely to wear a headscarf or burqa, would be oppressing women.

But it is also just oppressive, when a country force women to wear them when they go out in public as some Muslim-populated countries do. These countries also ban women from wearing Western-style dresses or skirts, as well as bikini, which is just oppressive, though not that I would see any Muslim women wanting to wear these clothes in the first place. But it is oppressive enough, when these countries tried to enforce it upon non-Muslim foreign women.

But I agree with you that banning women that freely want to wear the burqa would be alienating these women. The secular society may want to do good by "liberating" these women from "oppression", but such good intention may not be seen as "liberating" from that woman's point of view. Hence, it would be seen that secular society or law as oppressing the same women they thought they are liberating.

 

[zenzero]

Friend texan,

Ban the Burqa

rules are simple.
One is free to wear anything n this world.
If you are not free, then seek freedom from what you are tied up with and mostly one is tied up to their own minds and to be free from thoughts is real Freedom including to wear or not to wear a piece of clothing that imprisons the wearer.

Love & rgds

 

[blackout]

I am all for NO MORE dress 'codes'.
period.

Wear what you want,
all the time,
wherever.

That actually DOES reflect my religion.

I should be given as much consideration.

 

[Badran]

I tend to go with this Muslim woman's view.
Burka ban: Why must I cast off the veil? - Telegraph

This is a great article. To be honest after reading the first paragraph i got an awful impression, and didn't expect much. But then i was pleasantly surprised.

The push to ban the burqa, imo, is motivated by security concerns not libertarian values.
Biometrics is the current flavour of choice for those who desire to track and control individuals as they move through the vast mass of humanity.
Face recognition software is the preferred method of achieving the desired level of control.
　
As we speak every major airport in the world has installed, is installing, or is planning the installation of, biometric readers to scan each and every individual that moves through their gates.
The technology can, in due course, be piggy-backed onto the current ubiquitous cctv coverage of public spaces.
Any person with their face covered, for whatever reason, will not be recognised by these systems and would remain anonymous.
Anonymity finds no place, no reason to exist, in the world of 'security concerns'.
　
The public discourse on the matter has been generated by 'security concerns' and shaped into a ban/no ban scenario that allows for no intermediate or alternative position and applies emotional leverage on all the participants.
I find that other strategies that might address the security concerns are, for all intents and purposes, not permitted entry to the public discourse.
　
In short, imo, fear has ruled the West in its thinking on this matter.
That Syria has readily and wholly adopted the West's politics on the burqa only serves to reinforce my opinion.
　

The arguments of security concerns are a bit more easier to swallow than others. I wouldn't view it as oppression if indeed the niqab and burqa imposed a serious threat that couldn't be dealt with, but i don't think it is so. And i'm not convinced its the real motive behind this.

Other arguments however concerning liberating women and the like are not something i can swallow at all. You don't liberate people by forcing them to do something, especially when they have made it clear that they are not forced to do what they are doing.

 

[Badran]

True.

When government, society or religion are telling what women should or should not wear, it is a sign of oppression.

If a secular society wants to ban a woman who chooses freely to wear a headscarf or burqa, would be oppressing women.

I'm glad to hear that.

But it is also just oppressive, when a country force women to wear them when they go out in public as some Muslim-populated countries do. These countries also ban women from wearing Western-style dresses or skirts, as well as bikini, which is just oppressive, though not that I would see any Muslim women wanting to wear these clothes in the first place. But it is oppressive enough, when these countries tried to enforce it upon non-Muslim foreign women.

No doubt. You have no idea how much i despise such laws, and how much ill-feelings i hold for the countries that enforces this. (which thankfully are only a few, Iran and Saudi Arabia are the ones i'm aware of). Also, some muslim women too actually do dress in skirts or western style dresses. Not all muslim women wear hijab or niqab. In Egypt here there are lots of muslim women who do not wear what would be considered a proper Islamic dress. Women are free to wear what they want, some muslims women wear hijab, some don't. Some wear modest dresses, some don't.

But I agree with you that banning women that freely want to wear the burqa would be alienating these women. The secular society may want to do good by "liberating" these women from "oppression", but such good intention may not be seen as "liberating" from that woman's point of view. Hence, it would be seen that secular society or law as oppressing the same women they thought they are liberating.

Indeed, since those women have already clarified that they wear it willingly.

 

[Kathryn]

Banning the burqa is a futile, divisive, pathetic attempt at power-grabbing and grandstanding. It's counterproductive when it comes to dealing with western society's very REAL problems with radical Islamist sects and terrorism.

It's akin to banning ski masks because some bank robbers use them, or banning those sort of weird Pentecostal hair styles because some women who wear them are treated as second class citizens by their religious sects (or at least some people ASSUME that they are being mistreated).

This sort of ridiculous legislation adds more anger and fuel to the fire of Muslim extremists by validating their cries of "Persecution!" by the Western societies that they've migrated to (the same ones that they refuse to adapt to - instead insisting on the adaptation of their values by their adopted countries - but that's another story).

That being said, there are definitely scenarios in which a burqa should be outlawed, or where a burqa should be required to be removed for identification or security purposes. Banks, airports, drivers license photos - any situation where ID must be verified.

 

[texan1]

I was listening to a program on the radio yesterday about human trafficing into Europe and of the many many women forced into lives of prostitution.
Misogyny and abuse of women is alive and well in 'The West' and as far as I can see banning an article of clothing isn't doing anything to help anyone.

Unfortunately, you are probably right.

 

[texan1]

Again, from the article:
"Let’s be perfectly frank. These bans are outrages against religious freedom and freedom of expression. They stigmatize Muslims. No modern state should be in the business of dictating what women should wear. The security arguments are spurious; there are a million ways to hide a bomb, and one hardly need wear a burqa to do so. It is not necessarily the case that the burqa is imposed upon women against their will; when it is the case, there are already laws on the books against physical coercion.

The argument that the garment is not a religious obligation under Islam is well-founded but irrelevant; millions of Muslims the world around believe that it is, and the state is not qualified to be in the business of Koranic exegesis. The choice to cover one’s face is for many women a genuine expression of the most private kind of religious sentiment. To prevent them from doing so is discriminatory, persecutory, and incompatible with the Enlightenment traditions of the West. It is, moreover, cruel to demand of a woman that she reveal parts of her body that her sense of modesty compels her to cover; to such a woman, the demand is as tyrannical, humiliating, and arbitrary as the passage of a law dictating that women bare their breasts.

All true. And yet the burqa must be banned....the arguments against a ban are coherent and principled. They are also shallow and insufficient. They fail to take something crucial into account, and that thing is this: If Europe does not stand up now against veiling — and the conception of women and their place in society that it represents — within a generation there will be many cities in Europe where no unveiled woman will walk comfortably or safely."

Badran and ssainhu - I agree with many other sentiments here that it makes no sense to dictate what a woman wears. But in your opinion, do you think the threat is real to women, particularly Muslim women who chose not to wear the veil in cities where more radical Islam is followed? I hear accounts of women that feel they have to wear the veil simply to protect themselves. What are your feelings on this? It seems to be a complicated issue.

 

[beenie]

there must be several threads discussing the same topic, and i seem to be finding them all. :jumping

my stand never changes. any government, group, spouse, family member...that tries to control women in ANY society ("Islamic", secular, western, etc) by dictating what they can and can't wear is OPPRESSIVE to those women who choose to wear it. i know a few women who wear niqaab, and all of them did so on their own accordance. as a matter of fact, a couple of them have husbands that wish they WOULDN'T wear it, but they're steadfast in their belief and wear it anyway. i don't consider that oppressing the women. :jumping

removing the face veil for security purposes in an airport, bank, school, etc. is completely acceptable an should be done without hesitation...provided they are allowed to put it back on after such ID is made.

 

[croak]

I would go as far as to say that all religious symbols whether Xtian or Muslim have no place in the public sphere. This might go for beards for men as well.

Shall we ban beards for men, then, because they might be considered religious symbols? I assume women and billy goats would be allowed to keep theirs.

I am all for NO MORE dress 'codes'.
period.

Wear what you want,
all the time,
wherever.

That actually DOES reflect my religion.

I should be given as much consideration.

Does that include not wanting to wear anything? Us ravens don't have much of a problem with that.

 

[Cypress]

removing the face veil for security purposes in an airport, bank, school, etc. is completely acceptable an should be done without hesitation...provided they are allowed to put it back on after such ID is made.

What if women argument that they have the right to remain veiled before male security officers?
Must we than all wait at the airport when no female officer is available?

 

[beenie]

What if women argument that they have the right to remain veiled before male security officers?
Must we than all wait at the airport when no female officer is available?

in my eyes? no.

another alternative, however, is to have the woman requiring a female officer wait on the side and let others through, hence no wait for you. just a thought...

 

[Badran]

Badran and ssainhu - I agree with many other sentiments here that it makes no sense to dictate what a woman wears. But in your opinion, do you think the threat is real to women, particularly Muslim women who chose not to wear the veil in cities where more radical Islam is followed? I hear accounts of women that feel they have to wear the veil simply to protect themselves. What are your feelings on this? It seems to be a complicated issue.

It is complicated. There are women of course who get pressured and in some places even forced into wearing this. However, lots of others do not. So, the problem is not with the dress, it is with the attitude towards women. To solve this, we certainly must not merely also force women to wear something, just because we believe its better. In other words, these people who force women to wear burqa or niqab must be faught, but we shouldn't fight them by enforcing our own view on how women should dress. (Not wearing it)

Especially because most women who wear this in the countries which proposes these laws are the ones who wear it willingly, so this is quite insulting. We only add to the oppression towards women with this attitude, if we keep deciding for them what and what not to wear.

 

[gnostic]

I do see the burqa as a sign of oppression, but to force any woman to not wear them when she want to wear, would also be considered oppressive. I just don't see how banning burqa would help secularism because it would still alienate women, who may or may not be already be alienated by their culture or religion.

Secularism is about having religious-neutral law and society, it is not about banning religion altogether. Politics, law and education required these to be free from religious interference, but people are free to believe what they want, follow whatever religion they want. Secularism doesn't and shouldn't govern what women should or should not wear.

If you can prove that the religion or Muslim community, or Muslim husband, father or brother are forcing a woman to wear the burqa, then perhaps the law and government step in, and take action against of the above. A blanket ban on burqa would not work, but action could probably take place on individual case.

 

[Muslim93]

IMO, this arguement does not belong in a religious forum. The reason behind that is that the burqa is more of a cultural symbol than a religious one. In Islam, a woman is allowed to show the face, hands and feet.
If the Burqa forms a security threat, as in if its used by criminals to hide their identity, i am all for banning it. Any other reason for banning it breaches a persons freedom.

 

[beenie]

It is complicated. There are women of course who get pressured and in some places even forced into wearing this. However, lots of others do not. So, the problem is not with the dress, it is with the attitude towards women. To solve this, we certainly must not merely also force women to wear something, just because we believe its better. In other words, these people who force women to wear burqa or niqab must be faught, but we shouldn't fight them by enforcing our own view on how women should dress. (Not wearing it)

Especially because most women who wear this in the countries which proposes these laws are the ones who wear it willingly, so this is quite insulting. We only add to the oppression towards women with this attitude, if we keep deciding for them what and what not to wear.

I agree with this. just because a faction of society sees the burqa as oppressive doesn't make it so. some women find staying at home to rear children as oppressive too.

I guarantee there are women being forced to wear the burqa; I don't personally know a single one. oppression should be stopped in all forms.

 

[Rakhel]

Someone mentioned security problem. This is the only place it's reported on
Air Canada Probe Ordered After Security Breach - Jewish World - Israel News - Israel National News
Video relating to the article
[youtube]DAB1GffSSZc[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪A major Canadian airline risks your safety, pandering to muslim sensibilities‬‎