Baptist Preachers and Worldview

[angellous_evangellous]

Abram made a patently false statement in a discussion thread that I would like to address here.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10914&page=3 post # 28

I love most Baptist Pastors because their intensity to the Bible. They teach the Bible and not their view of the world.
These are the views of a Bible thumping Jesus freak and have no problem admitting it...
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My initial response was:

This statement is false.

It is false because they may be under the delusion that the worldview that they have is rooted in the Bible.

For example, George Barna fancies that the following is a "Biblical worldview"
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...naUpdateID=194

Belief that God created the world, that the Bible is inerrant, and heaven and hell is the view of the world that many fundie Baptists hold.

To which he replied:

Because it's true. We don't agree on this, thats fine. Its sad that you let the world decive you. Its hard now days when everyone says "you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want" there is no real truth. I would say there wrong and there is only one truth.
The world was created by God and there is a real heaven and hell.

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Back to the original statement that I protest:

They teach the Bible and not their view of the world.

===

I argue that there is not a preacher alive on this earth who teaches the Bible as opposed to their view of the world.

Worldview is a pretty slippery concept. We all have them, and when we read an ancient text like the Bible, we often read our worldview into the text.

I know of too mant examples to list at once... but here's a few.

Honor and shame (and patron/client relationships) ruled their world, and we don't have a clue about the dynamics of honor and shame in the contexts of various texts of the NT unless we study this kind of thing.

Another example is the way that the ancients may have conceived time. It is generally said that we view time linearly and they viewed time circularly. This can cause real problems...

Another example is inerrancy and infalliability of Scripture. This is a completely foreign idea to the ancient writers. They had absolutely no concept of this kind of thing. I can show you pictures of the edited papyri of the NT to prove this.

Absolute fact is nowhere in the NT. So myth and fact intertwine in the eastern mind.

 

[Abram]

What? What grounds do you have to debate this? What grounds do I have?
How many times have you heard this "and the Bible says"

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What? What grounds do you have to debate this? What grounds do I have?
How many times have you heard this "and the Bible says"

Whatever the Bible says must be interpreted, and the worldview of the interpreter is a hinderance to this process. If the person is going to believe their interpretation is true - a genuine reading of the text, then the person may modify slightly their worldview to align with the text.

Then, when a contradictory text is found, they have to pretend that the contradiction doesn't exist or modify their view.

But all in all, the original worldview that they had really won't change that much.

For example, science has affected our worldview beyond repair. Scientific fact is true in a way that religious myth never will be, and it shapes our reading of the text in a way that is completely foreign to the original authors and audience.

 

[Abram]

Whatever the Bible says must be interpreted, and the worldview of the interpreter is a hinderance to this process. If the person is going to believe their interpretation is true - a genuine reading of the text, then the person may modify slightly their worldview to align with the text.

Then, when a contradictory text is found, they have to pretend that the contradiction doesn't exist or modify their view.

But all in all, the original worldview that they had really won't change that much.

For example, science has affected our worldview beyond repair. Scientific fact is true in a way that religious myth never will be, and it shapes our reading of the text in a way that is completely foreign to the original authors and audience.

Science, your on your own there. I don't believe in science. I think at times its at error and stick to the Bible.
But if you listen to the great Bible teachers they all are saying the same thing. John McArther, Vernon McGee, Charles Swindoll, Max Lucado.
Jesus! The opposite of world view. "Don't be conformed to this world."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Science, your on your own there. I don't believe in science. I think at times its at error and stick to the Bible.

Sometimes it's like the Dark Ages never happened.

But if you listen to the great Bible teachers they all are saying the same thing. John McArther, Vernon McGee, Charles Swindoll, Max Lucado.
Jesus! The opposite of world view. "Don't be conformed to this world."

If you think that all these guys are saying the same thing, then you are incapable of seeing relationships between ideas. If you think that they are saying the same thing as Jesus. you're wrong. They interpret the words that are attributed to Jesus, and their interpretations have little to no historical contact with Jesus Christ and the historical church (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or other historical churches like the Chinese or Coptic Church).

Because they are all Protestants and can "interpret the Bible for themselves," they all have individual readings of the Bible, and the statement that they are all teaching the same thing is rendered completely impossible. They may have generally the same view, but you are not going to be able to show that they all teach the same thing. If they did, they would all share in the same denomenation.

It may be better for you to continue living in your little fantasy than to show you the truth.

 

[sojourner]

This will come as no big surprise to anyone here, but I wholeheartedly agree with you, AE. I would expand that to include more than just Baptist preachers. We could include all clergy, myself included, because we all read and interpret through our own filters. The apostolic churches have an advantage, becuase the interpretive process is a little more communal and tradition-driven in those churches, but it's a trap, nonetheless. Burying one's head in the sand of her or his own ignorance and personal mythology cannot substitute for clear, open, informed, and responsible exegesis.

Thank you for your post! Frubals be upon your head!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This will come as no big surprise to anyone here, but I wholeheartedly agree with you, AE.

I attended two years of Baptist seminary. All they taught us was worldview. I now get a twitch when I hear the word.

I would expand that to include more than just Baptist preachers. We could include all clergy, myself included, because we all read and interpret through our own filters. The apostolic churches have an advantage, becuase the interpretive process is a little more communal and tradition-driven in those churches, but it's a trap, nonetheless. Burying one's head in the sand of her or his own ignorance and personal mythology cannot substitute for clear, open, informed, and responsible exegesis.

Thank you for your post! Frubals be upon your head!

:clap :clap

 

[Sunstone]

Angellous, you're right on the mark about this. But I don't think you're going to change the way American fundamentalists look at the Bible.

American fundamentalism arose in the first place in part as a reaction against Biblical scholarship, especially that of the early German philologists. American fundamentalism has always had a mile wide anti-intellectual streak in it, and a strong tendency to dismiss Biblical scholarship in favor of a "common sense" interpretation of the Bible. This is an entrenched characteristic of American fundamentalism, IMO, and not one easily changed.

As for your point that we naively interpret the Bible through the lense(s) of our own culture, I completely agree. Perhaps the most obvious examples of this are the traditional depictions of Jesus in art as a European. Of course, it also gets far more subtle than that.

And I also agree with you about the remedy: study the societies and cultures of the Bible. This can be a life long task. There is no quick and easy way to understand a culture not our own. Just consider how difficult it is for Americans to understand where the French are coming from on political issues alone! Most people simply give up trying to understand them, and instead resort to castigating them. But we Americans are far, far closer to the Frence in cultural outlook than we are to the world of Jesus. It is several times more challenging to understand His world, than it is to understand our contemporary Europeans. You've set yourself to an exciting task.

Frubals to you, Angellous (when I'm no longer out of them).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Angellous, you're right on the mark about this. But I don't think you're going to change the way American fundamentalists look at the Bible.

American fundamentalism arose in the first place in part as a reaction against Biblical scholarship, especially that of the early German philologists. American fundamentalism has always had a mile wide anti-intellectual streak in it, and a strong tendency to dismiss Biblical scholarship in favor of a "common sense" interpretation of the Bible. This is an entrenched characteristic of American fundamentalism, IMO, and not one easily changed.

As for your point that we naively interpret the Bible through the lense(s) of our own culture, I completely agree. Perhaps the most obvious examples of this are the traditional depictions of Jesus in art as a European. Of course, it also gets far more subtle than that.

And I also agree with you about the remedy: study the societies and cultures of the Bible. This can be a life long task. There is no quick and easy way to understand a culture not our own. Just consider how difficult it is for Americans to understand where the French are coming from on political issues alone! Most people simply give up trying to understand them, and instead resort to castigating them. But we Americans are far, far closer to the Frence in cultural outlook than we are to the world of Jesus. It is several times more challenging to understand His world, than it is to understand our contemporary Europeans. You've set yourself to an exciting task.

Frubals to you, Angellous (when I'm no longer out of them).

:clap :takeabow: :clap

 

[Mister_T]

:highfive: A.E. you hit the nail on the head with this one.

 

[Mister_T]

"You must spread more around karma befoe giving it this user again" Crap. It was thought that counts.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"You must spread more around karma befoe giving it this user again" Crap. It was thought that counts.

You can always do this:

http://www.mygroovywedding.com/forum/images/smilies/worshippcar.gif

 

[Mister_T]

You can always do this:

I've created a monster.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I've created a monster.

Mr_T...................................... Angellous

=====

Surely you don't really think that you can take credit for my egocentrism.

I was a pointy-headed intellectual long before you first posted on RF... you merely stroked my already obnoxiously huge ego.:jam:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Man this is a great thread!

 

[SoyLeche]

Man this is a great thread!

This thread is SO last year

 

[sojourner]

I have a book that was sent to me unsolicited by a movement whose purpose is to destroy my particular denomination. In it, the author actually says that the problem began when our "liberal seminaries" began employing historical, cultural and form criticism in Biblical interpretation and exegesis.

Darn those pesky liberals! Imagine! Actually hoping to interpret the scriptures with a critical mind! The hubris!

 

[Sunstone]

I have a book that was sent to me unsolicited by a movement whose purpose is to destroy my particular denomination. In it, the author actually says that the problem began when our "liberal seminaries" began employing historical, cultural and form criticism in Biblical interpretation and exegesis.

Darn those pesky liberals! Imagine! Actually hoping to interpret the scriptures with a critical mind! The hubris!

There's nothing worse than a Christian that actually thinks? Wow! How do you deal with such insanity?

 

[doppelganger]

Angellous, you're right on the mark about this. But I don't think you're going to change the way American fundamentalists look at the Bible.

American fundamentalism arose in the first place in part as a reaction against Biblical scholarship, especially that of the early German philologists. American fundamentalism has always had a mile wide anti-intellectual streak in it, and a strong tendency to dismiss Biblical scholarship in favor of a "common sense" interpretation of the Bible. This is an entrenched characteristic of American fundamentalism, IMO, and not one easily changed.

Great points, Phil. Fundamentalism in all forms is reactionary. The danger is that its method of using fear to manipulate people so sullies the meaning and value of Christian mythology that risks tainting the beauty of Christianity forever. Indeed, historically it has.

Einstein has it right in the quote I posted from his address to the Princeton Theological Seminary that such reactionary "religion" threatens the vitality of the Spirit. And we need the Spirit:

If one holds these high principles clearly before one's eyes, and compares them with the life and spirit of our times, then it appears glaringly that civilized mankind finds itself at present in grave danger, In the totalitarian states it is the rulers themselves who strive actually to destroy that spirit of humanity. In less threatened parts it is nationalism and intolerance, as well as the oppression of the individuals by economic means, which threaten to choke these most precious traditions.


A realization of how great is the danger is spreading, however, among thinking people, and there is much search for means with which to meet the danger--means in the field of national and international politics, of legislation, or organization in general. Such efforts are, no doubt, greatly needed. Yet the ancients knew something- which we seem to have forgotten. All means prove but a blunt instrument, if they have not behind them a living spirit. But if the longing for the achievement of the goal is powerfully alive within us, then shall we not lack the strength to find the means for reaching the goal and for translating it into deeds.

Sorry about all the Einstein quotes this morning. I had forgotten how awesome his essays and speeches on religion are. :rainbow1:

 

[CaptainXeroid]

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Moved to General Religious Debates from Same Faith.​