Before the death of Christ

[Fireside_Hindu]

Hello all,

I have a question. I have asked my Catholic husband but he wasn't really sure about the answer. If my understanding is correct, once Christ died and ascended into heaven, it's my understanding that this sacrifice freed mankind so that all could achieve salvation. (correct me if I'm wrong)

But what happened to all the souls who died before Christ's sacrifice? Were they held in purgatory? Non- existent? Hell?

Thanks!

 

[Noel]

Well it depends, my knowledge is that Jews didn't really believe in a Heaven or hell, but I'm guessing that it depended if they followed the laws of the old testament, from the different covenants made in it

 

[Ingledsva]

*

In the Hebrew view = ALL - both good and bad - went to Sheol, - the holding place of the dead until the Awaited Messiah comes, - and the end, - and the Final Judgment.

*

 

[b.finton]

In the Hebrew view = ALL - both good and bad - went to Sheol, - the holding place of the dead until the Awaited Messiah comes, - and the end, - and the Final Judgment.

Sheol is Earth.

The end must join the beginning.

Yikes.

b.

 

[b.finton]

But what happened to all the souls who died before Christ's sacrifice?

The sacrifice was from the foundations of the world: The Spirit that Gives Life/YH and Sustains Life/WH established and filled the cosmos with Life/H in forms capable of measuring the Source of the lives with which they were entrusted: that the fires of transformation experienced in the realms of duality might purify those forms, perfecting them to serve as lamps of the true Light that enlightens every man that comes into the world, both good and bad. The Life HaShem/YHWH entrusted to earthly forms is the Son. Among those forms in our perfection, we shall be clothed with the immortality foreseen for us, from the beginning.

In the meantime, we are to seek to uplift the faces of that Son in our brothers and sisters, as in ourselves.

The Son fills all in All: He is the first expression of Creation; and His will be the final shout of Joy. For HaShem does all things well.

b.

 

[Glaurung]

Since this is in the Catholic DIR, I guess a Catholic answer is in order.

But what happened to all the souls who died before Christ's sacrifice? Were they held in purgatory? Non- existent? Hell?

The righteous before Christ awaited in Sheol, or 'Limbo', where upon Christ's death he descended there and brought those in his friendship to salvation in Heaven. The damned remained damned in Hell.

 

[kepha31]

In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth; the Jewish equivalent to the Greco-Roman/pagan idea of the "Ellesian Fields" --a pleasant place, but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.

 

[TomD]

In the Tradition this is known as the Descent of Christ into Hell, or the Harrowing of Hell (in the English tradition). We hold that Christ died on the Cross, and then descended into the realm of the dead: "(Christ) being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison ..." (1 Peter 3:18-19).

There is no reason to assume the afterlife is a matter of time and place, so while we might say that someone has been dead for a period of time, 'time' is something we are conscious of in this world. We cannot really conceive of the experience of the dead.

There is also the point that God knew of the crucifixion before the world was made, therefore although Our Lord's sacrifice happened at a certain time and in a certain place, it is known eternally in the Eternal, so its redemptive effect works, from our perspective, backwards as well as forwards.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Since this is in the Catholic DIR, I guess a Catholic answer is in order.

The righteous before Christ awaited in Sheol, or 'Limbo', where upon Christ's death he descended there and brought those in his friendship to salvation in Heaven. The damned remained damned in Hell.

^This.

It's also called the Bosom of Abraham, from the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). There's no reason to assume that all those waiting there were Jewish, though.

 

[TheInfiniteLight]

Hello all,

I have a question. I have asked my Catholic husband but he wasn't really sure about the answer. If my understanding is correct, once Christ died and ascended into heaven, it's my understanding that this sacrifice freed mankind so that all could achieve salvation. (correct me if I'm wrong)

But what happened to all the souls who died before Christ's sacrifice? Were they held in purgatory? Non- existent? Hell?

Thanks!

It is Christ's coming that freed mankind. It is not just the resurrection and his ascension that freed mankind. It is His life which he laid down.

The Lord says that what you seek has already come to be. The Lord was the Lord, even before his coming to Earth. There was never a time when Heaven was not Heaven, and the Lord was not the Lord. Jesus even says that--even those who do not have the gospel of the Lord--will me mete as they have measured. People did not have the gospel before Jesus came; and all those who came before Jesus--were measured and weighed out by Our Heavenly Father. I just go by the scripture and the teachings of the Church. I do know however there is no one on earth that can command the Lord to place a soul in either Sheol or Heaven. I do know through scripture that Elijah was taken into Heaven by a Chariot. This is what conflicts with the Church's teaching. The Church says that no man ever went to Heaven after death but were rather sent to Sheol to await the Lord's coming. However, we do know that Elijah was taken; and even Enoch was taken by God, in the beginning.