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Being Skinny is NOT OKAY...Deal with it!

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Sorry for the posting bait, but I think some equal time is called for...

Some could say that there's no reason for anyone to be skinny (no matter what your genetics do with your metabolism). It's just a lifestyle choice. Especially if you suffer from negative self-image, anorexia, bulimia, or are hyperthyroid, or are too poor to afford enough food and/or only have access to high starch, high sugar, high fat foods, and go to sleep hungry most every night. You should just exercise less and eat more, because it's just a balance between calories in and calories out.

Okay, how does this sound, compared to "Being Fat is NOT OKAY?"

Especially since the research shows that genetics and environmental factors are very important for both overweight AND underweight people.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry for the posting bait, but I think some equal time is called for...

Some could say that there's no reason for anyone to be skinny (no matter what your genetics do with your metabolism). It's just a lifestyle choice. Especially if you suffer from negative self-image, anorexia, bulimia, or are hyperthyroid, or are too poor to afford enough food and/or only have access to high starch, high sugar, high fat foods, and go to sleep hungry most every night. You should just exercise less and eat more, because it's just a balance between calories in and calories out.

Okay, how does this sound, compared to "Being Fat is NOT OKAY?"

Especially since the research shows that genetics and environmental factors are very important for both overweight AND underweight people.

Tact?
A doctor will often tell a patient to try to loose weight and yes even gain weight for medical reasons. Being unfit (both under and overweight) increased chance of developing a myriad of illnesses such as diabetes, decreased life span and even a rise in complications when pregnant. A doctor doesn't typically shame a person for being over or underweight like you just did. So even though the underlying message is pretty much "it's not okay to be very skinny or very fat" when a doctor recommends a change in err weight in their patient, they also don't often try to belittle their patient unless in a dire situation as a wake up call.

I'm not okay with body shaming, but I am also not okay with just allowing people to suffer the ill health effects from an unhealthy weight just so we don't accidentally hurt their feelings. I'd rather gently nudge a friend towards a healthy diet and/or lifestyle than visit them in the hospital down the road.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Tact?
A doctor will often tell a patient to try to loose weight and yes even gain weight for medical reasons. Being unfit (both under and overweight) increased chance of developing a myriad of illnesses such as diabetes, decreased life span and even a rise in complications when pregnant. A doctor doesn't typically shame a person for being over or underweight like you just did. So even though the underlying message is pretty much "it's not okay to be very skinny or very fat" when a doctor recommends a change in err weight in their patient, they also don't often try to belittle their patient unless in a dire situation as a wake up call.

I'm not okay with body shaming, but I am also not okay with just allowing people to suffer the ill health effects from an unhealthy weight just so we don't accidentally hurt their feelings. I'd rather gently nudge a friend towards a healthy diet and/or lifestyle than visit them in the hospital down the road.
Sure, I don't disagree!

I just thought there needed to be a little balance with another thread that's gotten a lot of attention lately, where it's apparently okay to bash everyone who is overweight as lazy slobs who are only overweight because they choose to eat to much and not get enough activity in their lives, ignoring the multiple factors that enter into a person's weight and health at both ends of the spectrum.

I remember during the Chicago Bulls' era in the 1990s, a report came out noting that Michael Jordan and his teammates were all grossly overweight based on the body mass guidelines at the time....
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I just thought there needed to be a little balance with another thread that's gotten a lot of attention lately, where it's apparently okay to bash everyone who is overweight as lazy slobs who are only overweight because they choose to eat to much and not get enough activity in their lives, ignoring the multiple factors that enter into a person's weight and health at both ends of the spectrum.
I didn't see much of that in the other thread. I will say if you made this thread out of spite, it is in bad taste.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Especially since the research shows that genetics and environmental factors are very important for both overweight AND underweight people.
I would not argue otherwise, but I refuse to believe these are enough to say it can't be done. If you are on the unhealthy side of either spectrum, it is possible to shift the balance in the healthier direction. To encourage people to do otherwise because you have the notion that it might be tough would be irresponsible and borderline dangerous.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sorry for the posting bait, but I think some equal time is called for...

Some could say that there's no reason for anyone to be skinny (no matter what your genetics do with your metabolism). It's just a lifestyle choice. Especially if you suffer from negative self-image, anorexia, bulimia, or are hyperthyroid, or are too poor to afford enough food and/or only have access to high starch, high sugar, high fat foods, and go to sleep hungry most every night. You should just exercise less and eat more, because it's just a balance between calories in and calories out.

Okay, how does this sound, compared to "Being Fat is NOT OKAY?"
You are short of facts such as any harm to the person or increased medical costs that result from a person being “skinny”--whatever you mean by that--but you have done an excellent job of exemplifying sour grapes.

Especially since the research shows that genetics and environmental factors are very important for both overweight AND underweight people.
From Harvard School of Public Health webpage, "Genes Are Not Destiny":

What’s increasingly clear . . . is that genetic factors identified so far make only a small contribution to obesity risk-and that our genes are not our destiny: Many people who carry these so-called “obesity genes” do not become overweight, and healthy lifestyles can counteract these genetic effects.

[. . .]

In 2008, for example, Andreasen and colleagues demonstrated that physical activity offsets the effects of one obesity-promoting gene, a common variant of FTO. The study, conducted in 17,058 Danes, found that people who carried the obesity-promoting gene, and who were inactive, had higher BMIs than people without the gene variant who were inactive. Having a genetic predisposition to obesity did not seem to matter, however, for people who were active: Their BMIs were no higher or lower than those of people who did not have the obesity gene. (15)​

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/genes-and-obesity/
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I would not argue otherwise, but I refuse to believe these are enough to say it can't be done. If you are on the unhealthy side of either spectrum, it is possible to shift the balance in the healthier direction. To encourage people to do otherwise because you have the notion that it might be tough would be irresponsible and borderline dangerous.
First, I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm saying that there are more factors than just eating less and exercising more. Did you read the recent articles about what's happened to the participants on "The Biggest Loser" shows?

I think you need to do more research on the causes of obesity...and its opposite. Genetics is very important, social circumstances and pressures are very important, economic standing and opportunity is very important...and so on. Different studies show different effects, but they also focus on different aspects. The effects of food additives and other processing on how the body digests and metabolizes food--when combined with marketing, social pressures, and lack of access to healthy food alternatives--has been shown to be a major contributor to both hunger and obesity in the United States. There's lots of interactions and subtleties.

I think, though, this assertion that it's primarily the individual's fault is in the same category as being gay or trans, etc., is just a lifestyle choice. Being smart or ignorant (and yes, I know they are different things) are just choices people make, and they COULD choose different and be smarter or less ignorant if they just tried harder, exercised their brain more, paid more attention to the news, etc., etc. The poor are poor because they choose to be poor, they just don't work hard enough or smart enough and so on, not because the system largely keeps them from being able to get out of poverty....and so on.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I think you need to do more research on the causes of obesity...and its opposite.
I disagree. I am fully aware of the scientific evidence that supports what I have been saying. To put it another way, you will not find one single individual in the field worth anything say "Exercise and diet does not help."

Genetics is very important, social circumstances and pressures are very important, economic standing and opportunity is very important...and so on.
No one is saying otherwise. To use them a crutches for inaction, however, is stupid.

I think, though, this assertion that it's primarily the individual's fault is in the same category as being gay or trans, etc., is just a lifestyle choice. Being smart or ignorant (and yes, I know they are different things) are just choices people make, and they COULD choose different and be smarter or less ignorant if they just tried harder, exercised their brain more, paid more attention to the news, etc., etc. The poor are poor because they choose to be poor, they just don't work hard enough or smart enough and so on, not because the system largely keeps them from being able to get out of poverty....and so on.
These comparisons aren't even close to accurate and I sincerely hope you can see why.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I didn't see much of that in the other thread. I will say if you made this thread out of spite, it is in bad taste.
No, there's a lot of shaming in that other thread, starting with the OP. Hence why I sarcastically replied "okay, I'll just kill myself now" and someone even "liked" that post. Yeah, I get it - us fat asses are awful people and how dare we waste your precious taxpayer dollars that could be put to better use for the DoD budget. Lol.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
No, there's a lot of shaming in that other thread, starting with the OP. Hence why I sarcastically replied "okay, I'll just kill myself now" and someone even "liked" that post. Yeah, I get it - us fat asses are awful people and how dare we waste your precious taxpayer dollars that could be put to better use for the DoD budget. Lol.
Sorry you felt that way, if you take a thread personally, perhaps addressing it with the person (thats me) in a PM would be a good way to go about it. I can't predict how EVERY person will react to a thread. If you had taken the time to talk with me, then we could simply have the post removed. But you took the low road instead. Lesson learned, I hope.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Sorry you felt that way, if you take a thread personally, perhaps addressing it with the person (thats me) in a PM would be a good way to go about it. I can't predict how EVERY person will react to a thread. If you had taken the time to talk with me, then we could simply have the post removed. But you took the low road instead. Lesson learned, I hope.
Oh, please. Next time, have a bit more forethought before posting, unless you're willfully being ignorant of how your posts are coming off. And you accuse me of taking the "low road".
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Oh, please. Next time, have a bit more forethought before posting, unless you're willfully being ignorant of how your posts are coming off. And you accuse me of taking the "low road".
You do understand that most everyone around you is having a critical debate, right? With sources and everything! You seem to be the only one who has taken this the wrong way. Sorry about that.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
You do understand that most everyone around you is having a critical debate, right? With sources and everything! You seem to be the only one who has taken this the wrong way. Sorry about that.
That's nice. I'm done with your passive aggressiveness, so you can carry on having your "critical debate". :rolleyes:
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I disagree. I am fully aware of the scientific evidence that supports what I have been saying. To put it another way, you will not find one single individual in the field worth anything say "Exercise and diet does not help."


No one is saying otherwise. To use them a crutches for inaction, however, is stupid.


These comparisons aren't even close to accurate and I sincerely hope you can see why.
Where have I said people should not watch their diets and exercise? Where have I said that these are "crutches for inaction?" Your ignoring of them as contributing factors is what set off my response. Yes, people need to take responsibility for themselves; but EVERYONE needs to take responsibility for a system that actively encourages all kinds of unhealthy behaviors and in fact makes it possible to be profitable to assist people in becoming unhealthy.

I understand that you can't see why the comparisons are still valid. Most whites couldn't understand how their blaming blacks for everything affected blacks. Men could never understand how their attitudes and actions regarding women as being less than men and needing "protection" etc., had a negative effect on women. People who do not suffer discrimination, or health problems, or violence, and so on, just don't understand how it affects others. There's no problem insulting or shaming people, because they just need to suck it up!

People who are overweight need help--some of them need to get out of poverty, some of them need to get out of stressful life situations, some of them need to have access to healthier foods...some of these things are not things that THEY can necessarily do anything about, but we as a society could do something to help--if we just stop thinking it's ALL their fault and address some of the actual problems that are driving these and other problems.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
but EVERYONE needs to take responsibility for a system that actively encourages all kinds of unhealthy behaviors and in fact makes it possible to be profitable to assist people in becoming unhealthy.
For the last time. I agree with you.

I understand that you can't see why the comparisons are still valid. Most whites couldn't understand how their blaming blacks for everything affected blacks. Men could never understand how their attitudes and actions regarding women as being less than men and needing "protection" etc., had a negative effect on women.
These are not fair comparisons, come on now.

People who are overweight need help--some of them need to get out of poverty, some of them need to get out of stressful life situations, some of them need to have access to healthier foods...some of these things are not things that THEY can necessarily do anything about, but we as a society could do something to help--if we just stop thinking it's ALL their fault and address some of the actual problems that are driving these and other problems.
I agree, it is not all their fault. But as we have both said, there is personal responsibility, too. This door does swing both ways,
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure, I don't disagree!

I just thought there needed to be a little balance with another thread that's gotten a lot of attention lately, where it's apparently okay to bash everyone who is overweight as lazy slobs who are only overweight because they choose to eat to much and not get enough activity in their lives, ignoring the multiple factors that enter into a person's weight and health at both ends of the spectrum.

I remember during the Chicago Bulls' era in the 1990s, a report came out noting that Michael Jordan and his teammates were all grossly overweight based on the body mass guidelines at the time....
Oh well in that case I agree. Bashing all fat people as lazy is awful.
Unfamiliar with the thread in question though
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
First, I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm saying that there are more factors than just eating less and exercising more. Did you read the recent articles about what's happened to the participants on "The Biggest Loser" shows?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I have and watched some video reports on it too. Perhaps we need to question the "dieting" culture we have and instead shift our focus towards sustainable health, instead of just weight loss and calorie restriction. For instance, I've switched to a high carb plant based diet and haven't been counting calories AT ALL even though I eat loads. Have not gained weight yet and I don't even exercise. Though I want and get started (because I am unfit, and fitness is part of health as well). But because our culture bombards us with diet fads and calorie restriction, I've yo-yo'ed ever since I was a teenager. I was around 110 pounds and gained all the weight back and more. Just like those Biggest Loser people, but to a much lesser degree. Some people call this metabolic damage. It's not the way to go for a healthy and sustainable life. And yet it seems to be the number one advice from practically everyone INCLUDING DOCTORS. Horrible.

There keeps being finger pointing on simple one food solutions too (carbs are evil, for example). Being healthy is a complex matter, no ONE simple solution can work. It's a combination of things, no one food is going to cure this, nor will eliminating one food magically make you thin. I also doubt that a calorie is a calorie. Besides, health-wise, it's a lot better to have lots of vegetables and plants than have cake. Yet if one only focuses on calories in and calories out, they produce metabolic damage, get less healthy because they can technically eat garbage. It was such a relief for me to find all of this out and start eating more, I didn't need to feel hungry anymore and am starting to have more energy. I fill my plate with plants, sometimes have seconds and there's no calorie counting. I wish I had found this out sooner.

I feel it's unfair to call obese people lazy, when SO many of them have tried TONS of diets, calorie restrictions and so on. Some of those people very close to me, and it's sad to see them confused to why it's not working or why they gain weight back despite doing everything "right" to the point of being hungry and tired. Then doctors blame them for not sticking to the diet, even though they have! It's not necessarily that they have no control or put no effort into it! The environment is also an important factor, it must be hard in the US to try to be healthy and be surrounded by cheap unhealthy "foods". But I am sick of seeing unhealthy "1200 calories" restriction diets and lots of stupid fads out there. It's simply not going to work if one wants long term changes. But hardly anyone wants to say it.

I wasn't sure which thread to post into, but I thought yours was worth getting more replies, since I saw this reply and agree with the original post that it's so wrong to just blame it on laziness. There's so many factors. The only way to make it work is change the environment, stop promoting restriction and start eating plentiful healthy food, mainly plants or all plants if you're interested in that.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I fill my plate with plants, sometimes have seconds and there's no calorie counting. I wish I had found this out sooner.
The reason being is that many vegetables have a very low calorie count per ounce of food.

I feel it's unfair to call obese people lazy, when SO many of them have tried TONS of diets, calorie restrictions and so on.
I don't buy it. There certainly is a level of experimentation to figure out what will and will not work for you. But, in the end if it is a genuine goal of an individual, they will make it happen.

But I am sick of seeing unhealthy "1200 calories" restriction diets and lots of stupid fads out there.
That is an extreme limitation unless the person in question is naturally very small. There are fads out there that are not effective, it does not make the task at hand impossible.

The only way to make it work is change the environment, stop promoting restriction and start eating plentiful healthy food, mainly plants or all plants if you're interested in that.
Correct and if someone is unwilling to make that effort because of inconvenience or lack of drive you might call them... lazy. At least, I do. Remember, a simple definition of lazy is the unwillingness to work for something. Yes, there are other factors, but they can be overcome. It will be tough, no one is saying it is easy. Anyone can find 1000 reasons to not do something. But it really does boil down to one simple question: how important is this to me? If it isn't that important, fine. Give up, quit. Otherwise, saddle up and be willing to be uncomfortable for a while, in the mean time sacrifices for better health need to be made. I refuse to justify unhealthy habits because it's hard. Cowards whine about how hard it is to do something before they give up and if you find yourself in this situation you need to look in the mirror and say "That's not me, I am BETTER than that!"
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
...a simple definition of lazy is the unwillingness to work for something. Yes, there are other factors, but they can be overcome. It will be tough, no one is saying it is easy. Anyone can find 1000 reasons to not do something. But it really does boil down to one simple question: how important is this to me? If it isn't that important, fine. Give up, quit. Otherwise, saddle up and be willing to be uncomfortable for a while, in the mean time sacrifices for better health need to be made. I refuse to justify unhealthy habits because it's hard. Cowards whine about how hard it is to do something before they give up and if you find yourself in this situation you need to look in the mirror and say "That's not me, I am BETTER than that!"
And, there you go again!

"Lazy...saddle up and be willing to be uncomfortable...cowards..."

It's EASY to beat addiction! It's easy to overcome a stressful social or economic situation! It's easy to challenge and overcome what your genes and microbiota are trying to do to your body! Just BE BETTER by deciding that you are better!

The same way its easy to stop being gay, or stop believing that you are a female person in a male body, or short, or light-skinned...

Your language and position suggest that you have little to no empathy for the situations of others. Maybe you've dealt with addition or race or whatever in your life, and you've managed to "get over it," whatever "it" it was for you. Wonderful. Congratulations.

Others may be fighting not just one "it," they might be fighting several of them--and the number one "it" they are fighting may not be the one you think they should. Your solution is to, it appears to me, shame and suggest that they should change their priorities to YOUR priorities.

Sure, being overweight contributes to lots of health problems, but it is more a symptom of a host of other issues, and it is likely that obesity as a public health issue would go away if we could solve a number of other social problems. Consider: Why is it that hunger, malnutrition, and obesity tend to be highest in the poorest populations in America? Is it coincidence that racial and other social segregation, poverty, lack of decent educational opportunities, lack of jobs, lack of access to effective transportation, and lack of access to fresh and healthy foods also concentrate in the same communities? How about the correlation of crime, substance abuse, and violence with impoverished areas and populations? Where healthcare options are limited? So you think all these things are unrelated to each other? That they don't cause and effect and feedback on each other?

And your solution seems to be for the lazy cowards to just buck it up and be uncomfortable until they are healthy and out of poverty and out of stressful life situations and no longer addicted and so on that are imposed in great measure not from inside people (although people do have to take responsibility for some portion...but that's not always as easy as just hearing a pep talk and deciding to change your eating habits, especially when you have no resources available to help you do so...), but from outside, from the attitudes and actions of other people.

Sorry, but I think your perception of the problem, and the solution, is too simplistic. On an individual basis, weight like any other aspect of our individual being is something we can work to change, if it's important enough. But on a societal basis, obesity is just one symptom of a larger problem that doesn't go away even if we can get everyone to eat a good diet and get enough activity to be healthy. Because, the ongoing grinding stress of poverty and discrimination and the like will still cause people to overeat and gain weight because that's how the body often reacts to stress, and it's often one of the few pleasures that might be available to people in those kinds of situations. Addiction still happens. and so on.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
It's EASY to beat addiction!
It will be tough, no one is saying it is easy.
I understand that reading comprehension is sometimes a challenge.

The same way its easy to stop being gay, or stop believing that you are a female person in a male body, or short, or light-skinned...
:rolleyes: You and I both know these are not that same things. (This is the last time I am going to address your lazy, inaccurate comparisons.)

Your language and position suggest that you have little to no empathy for the situations of others. Maybe you've dealt with addition or race or whatever in your life, and you've managed to "get over it," whatever "it" it was for you. Wonderful. Congratulations.
I am not responsible for your inaccurate assumptions.

Sure, being overweight contributes to lots of health problems
And that is my point.

And your solution seems to be for the lazy cowards to just buck it up and be uncomfortable until they are healthy and out of poverty and out of stressful life situations and no longer addicted and so on that are imposed in great measure not from inside people (although people do have to take responsibility for some portion...but that's not always as easy as just hearing a pep talk and deciding to change your eating habits, especially when you have no resources available to help you do so...), but from outside, from the attitudes and actions of other people.
I will take rambling run-on sentences for 400, Alex!

Sorry, but I think your perception of the problem, and the solution, is too simplistic.
That may be, but I prefer to not pass the buck and hide behind excuses when things get hard.

But on a societal basis, obesity is just one symptom of a larger problem that doesn't go away even if we can get everyone to eat a good diet and get enough activity to be healthy.
I would love to see you cite any source that is worth anything that would agree with that absurd statement. "Obesity will not go away if people eat right and exercise."

I will wait.
 
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