Believer vs Knowers

[Fool]

to the billions of believers what do they lack that the knower has?

​

John 4:22
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20
20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[an anarchist]

The believer does not have the false assumption that they for certain have the truth, such as the "knower", perhaps?

 

[SalixIncendium]

to the billions of believers what do they lack that the knower has?

A sense of irony.

 

[Ebionite]

The believer does not have the false assumption that they for certain have the truth, such as the "knower", perhaps?

Truth can be derived from knowledge of the divine as expressed through prophecy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Truth can be derived from knowledge of the divine as expressed through prophecy.

Um, no.


At least I have never seen anyone come close.

Knowledge is demonstrable. If you can't show it you don't know it.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Knowledge is demonstrable. If you can't show it you don't know it.

Show me what a Honeycrisp apple tastes like.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Truth can be derived from knowledge of the divine as expressed through prophecy.

What prophecy?

 

[McBell]

Show me what a Honeycrisp apple tastes like.

Take a bite out of a honey crisp apple.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Take a bite out of a honey crisp apple.

I don't have one. Someone will have to demonstrate the taste.

 

[wellwisher]

Show me what a Honeycrisp apple tastes like.

Some knowledge can only be obtained from within, based on first hand experience. Often people who have never had that first hand experience; a Honeycrisp apple, assume it must not exist or os not the worth the hype. And if you have eaten one, others who have never had one, may never reach a meeting of the minds, if you try to explain. It is one of those things you need to do for yourself, so you can get the full inner experience.

The sense of taste is an interesting thing. It is one of our five sensory systems, like sight. But this sense is often called subjective, since we all seem to enjoy different things and various spice levels. There are very few things, where a consensus is formed; Oreo Cookies invented in 1912.

There are people who have refined sense of taste, such as wine expert and chefs.. We can watch and listen and they can teach us how to taste wine and food, and what to " look ", for, so we can collectively say the same things. I wonder if sight works the same way? Is objectivity a trained behavior, seeing that different people often pick up other visual nuances, from the same visual experiential output. Once they point it out, then others can see. But before it is pointed out, their sight may not target it properly, due to something inside acting as a filter.

 

[Viker]

to the billions of believers what do they lack that the knower has?

​

John 4:22
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20
20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

"Knowing" is just another claim of faith, just another belief. After a certain point, it becomes dishonest. No one truly knows any more than another.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No one truly knows any more than another.

If you know this, then you know more than me.

 

[Viker]

If you know this, then you know more than me.

Nuh uh. You knows way more than me.

 

[Ebionite]

What prophecy?

In general, prophecy about the relevant truth. I look to the Abrahamic prophets because that what I'm most familiar with.

 

[McBell]

I don't have one. Someone will have to demonstrate the taste.

Ah...
A "What color does the number 4 taste like" question.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Ah...
A "What color does the number 4 taste like" question.

Only if it's carved from a Honeycrisp apple.

My point is this: If one hasn't experienced something and another has, the latter has knowledge that is not demonstrable based on their experience. If the former is not seeking to experience the taste, then that person will remain ignorant to the taste. That person may insist there is no taste or tell another they believe it tastes like a tomato, but cannot speak intelligently about the experience of the latter. They can either believe there's a taste or lack belief in a taste, but they have no way of knowing without seeking (unless, of course, the taste spontaneously appeared in their mouth, but even then, they would need to investigate what that taste actually is).

 

[Kenny]

to the billions of believers what do they lack that the knower has?

​

John 4:22
22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20
20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

I think the answer is found in this example although I wouldn't use the word "believe"?

I believe that there is a President named Biden that is running this country and that he is happily married. But I don't "know" him intimately, experientially, substantively and completely.

Perhaps it would be better said "One knows 'about' a person but cans still not "know" him?

 

[PureX]

What we are "believing" when we choose to believe something is that the thing we are "believing", is true. And we are choosing to believe this because we don't actually know it's true.

Knowledge is a set of facts that we have collected by direct experience. Belief is the presumption that those fact are still true, though they are not true by direct experience.

"I know my car is in my garage because I am seeing it there."

"I believe my car is parked in my garage because that's where I last saw it."

Knowing and believing are not the same cognitive phenomena.

 

[Lekatt]

Show me what a Honeycrisp apple tastes like.

Excellent thought. Personal experiences do matter, forget what scientists say about them. In fact all we have are our personal experiences to lead and guide us through life.
I have experience and a knower, but I don't feel like I know it all. In fact I know very little, the more I learn, the less I know. This physical life and our spiritual selves are far too vast for me to know it all.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Personal experiences do matter, forget what scientists say about them.

I'm not prepared to do that. Science is paramount in explaining how the physical world works.

That said, it does not speak to religious or spiritual experiences. Science holds no position on nor does it have any interest in one's personal spiritual experiences.

If science provides evidence that my understanding of existence is incorrect, I adjust my understanding in accordance with science.