"Believing in God in itself doesn't make a person irrational. "?

[PruePhillip]

But they're not objective. All you are presenting is opinion, and opinion isn't proof and opinion isn't fact.

Ultimately your own experiences are difficult to define "objectively."
Do my kids love me?
Am I happy?
How right was my mother about life?
Is there purpose in life?

 

[Milton Platt]

We don't know is not an answer. It presupposes to speak for everyone who exists and ever did exist. You will never find an answer for a presupposition like this and its a question that must have answer

It is an answer. If someone knew the answer and did not share it with a single person or write it down for others, then we still do not know......
The fact that something has an answer doe not mean we have the answer.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I wouldn't say the "fall" is "vague." Revelations is quite specific - the collapse of the business of churches,
(ie merchants wailing) The loss of its political power. The end of its idolatry. The take over of the churches by
people the bible saw as evil (I think of the various forms of Marxist theology and social activists who see the
church as a political vehicle.) And it won't be a place to get married in anymore.
Paul, amongst others, speaks explicitly of what would become of people's moral standings in the future. That
first church was under no illusion, despite the growth, that the church of the latter days would be huge, powerful,
corrupt and doomed.

This is interesting because
1 - the modern church would be unrecognizable to the New Testament (NT) writers
2 - the NT church was home based, small and growing and rejected the things embraced by modern churches.

Sure, some churches are still quite strong in America and the "third world" but the collapse has been going on
now since about 1900 - the attendance graphs are quite stark. Historically this is quite fast.

Those are all somewhat vague. What does it mean to say the Church loses its political power?

In any case, I think churches still have political power, they certainly have lots of money - have you seen how much money the Catholic Church has? - and people still get married in them.

 

[Tiberius]

Ultimately your own experiences are difficult to define "objectively."
Do my kids love me?
Am I happy?
How right was my mother about life?
Is there purpose in life?

So you are saying that your subjective experiences are difficult to define objectively?

*GASP*

 

[PruePhillip]

Those are all somewhat vague. What does it mean to say the Church loses its political power?

In any case, I think churches still have political power, they certainly have lots of money - have you seen how much money the Catholic Church has? - and people still get married in them.

King Henry VIII sought permission for a divorce. The Pope did not grant it.
THAT'S political power. The Pope sending armies against England is also
incredible power for religion to wield.
Yes, the Catholics still have power and still take marriages - but we aren't
talking about the death of this church, but its dying. By the end of this century
will there still be a church of any sort? I suspect maybe - but its observers will
be the fringe.

 

[Tiberius]

King Henry VIII sought permission for a divorce. The Pope did not grant it.
THAT'S political power. The Pope sending armies against England is also
incredible power for religion to wield.
Yes, the Catholics still have power and still take marriages - but we aren't
talking about the death of this church, but its dying. By the end of this century
will there still be a church of any sort? I suspect maybe - but its observers will
be the fringe.

Ah yes, the churches lost all political power when King Henry got his divorce, and churches have never had political power since, have they?

 

[PruePhillip]

Ah yes, the churches lost all political power when King Henry got his divorce, and churches have never had political power since, have they?

I didn't say that. Henry's divorce of Katherine did not diminish the power of religion,
it only diminished the power of the Roman Catholic Church. This church's power
had been waning since the 1200's - and then along came the Protestants.
But today the Lutheran churches, and Anglicans etc are in retreat - doctrine wise
and congregations.

 

[Tiberius]

I didn't say that. Henry's divorce of Katherine did not diminish the power of religion,
it only diminished the power of the Roman Catholic Church. This church's power
had been waning since the 1200's - and then along came the Protestants.
But today the Lutheran churches, and Anglicans etc are in retreat - doctrine wise
and congregations.

Churches still have huge amounts of political power. They still have huge amounts of money.

Your argument does not seem to reflect reality.

 

[PruePhillip]

Churches still have huge amounts of political power. They still have huge amounts of money.

Your argument does not seem to reflect reality.

True. But in relation to society as a whole their share in the money has
dramatically shrunk. I think the Mormons are doing well with one hundred
billion dollars, and there's a few rock star televangelists and mega churches,
but most religious organizations are doing it tough and selling off their assets.

 

[Tiberius]

True. But in relation to society as a whole their share in the money has
dramatically shrunk. I think the Mormons are doing well with one hundred
billion dollars, and there's a few rock star televangelists and mega churches,
but most religious organizations are doing it tough and selling off their assets.

Yes, I'm sure the Vatican is going to have to start pinching pennies any day now... You got a source to support your claim?

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, I'm sure the Vatican is going to have to start pinching pennies any day now... You got a source to support your claim?

To my surprise I find that the RCC is worth about $30b in Australia alone
Catholic Church worth $30 billion nationally, investigation finds

But Wiki suggests it's worth $3b in Australia. So there's an order of magnitude to play with. And we know
our ABC has a strong anti-religion, left wing bias.
List of wealthiest organizations - Wikipedia

This suggests the church is doing quite well, thank you. But... the church today is no where near as rich
as it was in the Middle Ages. It more or less own the whole world. And today the RCC is selling off a lot
of its properties to survive. In my town the local RC church developed a large crack through it and no-one
could afford to fix it - so no more RC church.

 

[Tiberius]

This suggests the church is doing quite well, thank you. But... the church today is no where near as rich
as it was in the Middle Ages. It more or less own the whole world. And today the RCC is selling off a lot
of its properties to survive. In my town the local RC church developed a large crack through it and no-one
could afford to fix it - so no more RC church.

Citation required for the claim that the church today is not as wealthy as it was in the middle ages.

 

[PruePhillip]

Citation required for the claim that the church today is not as wealthy as it was in the middle ages.

Yeah sure... you read right here,
Poohbear - ReligiousForums. 21/4/20.

My assessment is basely solely upon what the church owns now and what
it owned in the Middle Ages. And what power it has today as compared to
what power it held back then too. You just can't compare, you can hardly
imagine.
If the RCC has the power and wealth today it had back then it could command
America's forces to occupy China, or determine who would form government
in Russia. It could kill its dissidents. It could force you to attend church. It could
burn books.
A Catholic bishop or Cardinal making some statement today would be lucky to
get a mention in the local newspaper.

 

[Tiberius]

Yeah sure... you read right here,
Poohbear - ReligiousForums. 21/4/20.

My assessment is basely solely upon what the church owns now and what
it owned in the Middle Ages. And what power it has today as compared to
what power it held back then too. You just can't compare, you can hardly
imagine.
If the RCC has the power and wealth today it had back then it could command
America's forces to occupy China, or determine who would form government
in Russia. It could kill its dissidents. It could force you to attend church. It could
burn books.
A Catholic bishop or Cardinal making some statement today would be lucky to
get a mention in the local newspaper.

So the RC church doesn't control armies anymore. Behold the fall of the Roman Catholic church, everyone!

 

[PruePhillip]

So the RC church doesn't control armies anymore. Behold the fall of the Roman Catholic church, everyone!

I often say that I think that when it comes to organizations/institutions, nothing
on earth ever compared to the Roman Catholic Church for utter supremacy.
Not even USA today has the relative power this church had.

 

[Muffled]

Well your evidence (perhaps being selective) doesn't convince many of us.

I believe that is because many of you are irrational about the evidence.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe that is because many of you are irrational about the evidence.

No surprise here. Must repeat to myself - I must believe what is written in the good book - and say it at least 100 times a day. That should solve matters.

 

[Muffled]

we can weigh air. We can scientifically discern it’s components and the ratio of each. We can do experiments to show air occupies space. We can move the air molecules and create wind ourselves and we clearly understand what causes wind (movement of air molecules). Jesus was apparently unaware of this.

I did not say, nor even imply that attributes proved something does not exist. That is a shifting of the burden of proof.

I listed in another post the attributes of a Unicorn. Do they now exist?

My point is that giving a definition of something does not demonstrate it exists. Especially when the list of attributes are untestable, hence unverifiable.

I believe that is pure speculation. God knows everything which means Jesus knows it also.

I believe I have never heard of one being seen in our time nor has there been one found in excavations. However since we have the attributes we know what one is whether it is fantasy or material.

I believe I have a different definition of existence. For me things in fantasy exist in fantasy. Things that exist in material are probably what you are used to. God exists in Spirit and we don't even know what that is. We know the attributes of Spirit.

I believe that is not true.
Mal 3:10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

I believe I have verification that God exists.

 

[Muffled]

No surprise here. Must repeat to myself - I must believe what is written in the good book - and say it at least 100 times a day. That should solve matters.

I believe that doesn't work very well. Even Elisha who saw God work through Elijah still had to have God prove that He was going to work through him.

2Kgs 2:14 Then he took the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and struck the water, saying, “Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other, and Elisha went over.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I believe that doesn't work very well. Even Elisha who saw God work through Elijah still had to have God prove that He was going to work through him.

2Kgs 2:14 Then he took the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and struck the water, saying, “Where is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other, and Elisha went over.

Well I do try to be rational, and not expecting text from the past to be all that truthful. Fool that I am.