Bhagavad Gita: A "battle" of what kind?

[Ardent Listener]

I would like to present to all a question about the Bhagavad Gita and would welcome your opinions as to possible answers to it. It is my intention that this remain a discussion rather than a debate that pits one religion against another.

I'm quoteing from the Bhagavad Gita: A New Translation by Stephen Mitchell.

"The Gita takes place on the battlefield of Kuru at the beginning of the war. Arjuna has his chaiioteer, Krisha (who turns out to be God incarnated), drive him into the open space between the two armies, where he surveys the combatants. Overwhelemed with dread and pity at the imminent death of so many brave warriors--brothers, cousins, and kinsmen---he drops his weapons and refuses to fight. This is the cue for Krishna to begin his teachings about life and deathlessness, duty, nonattachment, the Self, love, spiritual practices, and inconceivable depths of reality. The "wondrous dialogue" that fills the next seventeen chapters of the Gita is really a monologue, much of it wondrous indeed, which often keeps us dazzeled and asking for more as Arjuna dose:

....for I never can tire of hearing your life-giving, honey-sweet words. (10.18)

Actually, a good case can be made that the Gita's answer about war--according to which, since the war is "just" Arjuna should do his duty as a warrior, stand up like a man and fight--is directly contradictory to the deeper lessons that Krisha teaches. How indeed can an enlighten stage, who cherishes all beings with equal compassion because he sees all beings within himself and himself within God, inflict harm on anyone, even wicked men who have launched an unjust war? This is still an open question, whatever Krishna may say. No fixed statement of the truth can apply to all circumstances, and honorable men, during ever war within memory, have come to opposie conclusions about what their duty is. Gandhi, who thought of the Gita as his "eternal mother", is almost convincing when he say that the seepest spiritual awareness necessarily implies absolute nonviolence. On the ohter hand, I can imagine even a buddha enlisting in the war against Hitler.

Nevertheless, whether or not Arjuna should fight is at most a secondary question for the Gita. The primary question is, How should we live?"

Question:

In your opinion, is the "battle" that the Gita is based around, a real physical fight among men of good over evil, or is a metaphor for the spiritual battle we as humans must fight to free ourselves form maya or delusion of creation? Or could it be both?

 

[Divine Androgyne]

I would like to present to all a question about the Bhagavad Gita and would welcome your opinions as to possible answers to it. It is my intention that this remain a discussion rather than a debate that pits one religion against another.

I'm quoteing from the Bhagavad Gita: A New Translation by Stephen Mitchell.

"The Gita takes place on the battlefield of Kuru at the beginning of the war. Arjuna has his chaiioteer, Krisha (who turns out to be God incarnated), drive him into the open space between the two armies, where he surveys the combatants. Overwhelemed with dread and pity at the imminent death of so many brave warriors--brothers, cousins, and kinsmen---he drops his weapons and refuses to fight. This is the cue for Krishna to begin his teachings about life and deathlessness, duty, nonattachment, the Self, love, spiritual practices, and inconceivable depths of reality. The "wondrous dialogue" that fills the next seventeen chapters of the Gita is really a monologue, much of it wondrous indeed, which often keeps us dazzeled and asking for more as Arjuna dose:

....for I never can tire of hearing your life-giving, honey-sweet words. (10.18)

Actually, a good case can be made that the Gita's answer about war--according to which, since the war is "just" Arjuna should do his duty as a warrior, stand up like a man and fight--is directly contradictory to the deeper lessons that Krisha teaches. How indeed can an enlighten stage, who cherishes all beings with equal compassion because he sees all beings within himself and himself within God, inflict harm on anyone, even wicked men who have launched an unjust war? This is still an open question, whatever Krishna may say. No fixed statement of the truth can apply to all circumstances, and honorable men, during ever war within memory, have come to opposie conclusions about what their duty is. Gandhi, who thought of the Gita as his "eternal mother", is almost convincing when he say that the seepest spiritual awareness necessarily implies absolute nonviolence. On the ohter hand, I can imagine even a buddha enlisting in the war against Hitler.

Nevertheless, whether or not Arjuna should fight is at most a secondary question for the Gita. The primary question is, How should we live?"

Question:

In your opinion, is the "battle" that the Gita is based around, a real physical fight among men of good over evil, or is a metaphor for the spiritual battle we as humans must fight to free ourselves form maya or delusion of creation? Or could it be both?

Arjuna:

What is it that drives a man to evil action, Krishna, even againt his will, as if some force made him do it?

The Blessed Lord Said:

That force is desire, it is anger, arising from the guna falled rajas; deadly and all-devouring, that is the enemy here.

As a fire is obsured by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, as a fetus is wrapped in its membrane, so wisdom is obscure by desire.

Wisdom is destroyed, Arjuna, by the constant enemy of the wise, which, flaring us as desire, blazes with insatiable flames.

Desire dwells in the senses, the mind, and the understanding; in all these it obscures wisdom and perplexes the embodied Self.

Therefore you must first control your senses, Arjuna; then destroy this evil that prevents you from ever knowing the truth.

Men say that the senses are strong. But the mind is stronger that the senses; the understanding is stronger than the mind; and strongest is the Self.

Knowing the Self, sustaining the self by the Self, Arjuna, kill the difficult-to conquer enemy called desire. (3.36-3.43)

 

[Surya Deva]

Question:

In your opinion, is the "battle" that the Gita is based around, a real physical fight among men of good over evil, or is a metaphor for the spiritual battle we as humans must fight to free ourselves form maya or delusion of creation? Or could it be both?

It is astonishing, that god would justify violence in the Mahabharata. But Krishna shows Arjuna, that good and bad/creation and dissolution are just two sides of the same coin and the soul is beyond such abstractions. It exists in a state of being and non-being beyond all that is imaginable. Krishna, said to Arjuna to fulfill his duty as a warrior and as a soul to ally with only that which is true.

These enemies of asatya(untruth) and adharma(non righteous) and agyana(ignorance) are the mental enemies of the soul, but also enemies we encounter physically. They cause our human condition to degenerate and thus it is out spiritual duty to fight against them and also our moral and civic duty. If Arjuna had surrendered, sure he would have saved himself from the bloodshed of his own kin, but he would have allowed untruth, non righteousness and ignorance to continue and multiply, which can only have lead to further degeneration of society and made it harder for the coming generations. This is why Krishna tells Arjuna that the coming generations would have denounced him as a coward.

This has equal implications for soul. If the soul allows these enemies to continue and multiply, they only lead to it's degeneration. These enemies encase the soul like dark clouds and block out the soul's true, eternal, efflugent and blissful self. The deeper we spiral down this chaos, the harder it becomes for us to go back to our original and pure state of being.

Likewise, society is the same. Take the current age(called Kali Yuga) where the vices are rampant; misery, pain, violence, crime, lust and desire characterise our lives. We live in an increasingly godless society on the verge of self-destruction. We couldn't just suddenly revert back into the golden spiritual age(Sat Yuga) or the Eden of mankind, because were so deep in this hole. Just as the soul is a being struggling against the vices; mankind is a social being stuggling against the same vices.

You are born as a human being, in a human society for a reason; to serve humanity. If you see an injustice being done, it is your spiritual, moral and civic duty to fight against it, for if you don't, that injustice will not only make it harders for others, but also harder for you. E.g. If you do not do anything about crime and let it multiply, eventually it is going to be at your doorstep.

This is why Krishna says that he loves those that love his own. Yes, we should love god, but we should also love each other, within whom his divine essence flows. In god's reality, all souls exist in unity and within him. It is only our ignorance that divides us.

This is why Arjuna had to fulfill his duty, it was for the good of man in the present as well as in the future. This is also why Krishna had to explain to Arjuna that whom he called his relatives, friends and cousins were souls in impermenent garments, and they will transmigrate and take on other garments and Arjuna's relationship would no longer be true. However, truth, bliss, knowledge and righteouness are eternal and unchanging and our true nature and the qualities of the supreme soul(Krishna)

To answer your actual question. Yes, the Mahabharata is a real physical event according to Indian historical records.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Yes all this is true, what we speak helps us to grow but what we do with this infomation is even more inportant for us in this path we choose to follow, i hope the posts continue in this way....many blessings to you all.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

:149: May my fellow devotees please stand up on krsnas behalf for we are at disadvantage in this forum, also our fellow devotees should not be restricted to this area of the forum, we should be allowed to enter christin debates from our vantage point for insight may be gained by both partys.

 

[michel]

:149: May my fellow devotees please stand up on krsnas behalf for we are at disadvantage in this forum, also our fellow devotees should not be restricted to this area of the forum, we should be allowed to enter christin debates from our vantage point for insight may be gained by both partys.

Sorry, I hope you don't mind my asking you why you believe you are 'restricted' to this area of the forum ? You can join in any debate (as long as it is not carried out in an "Discuss individual Releligions" Forum). Please feel free to PM me if you need more help; there is no question of your being relagated to any area; I am not sure where you got that Idea, and I hope we can help you understand the 'status Quo'

Michel

 

[Darkdale]

:149: May my fellow devotees please stand up on krsnas behalf for we are at disadvantage in this forum, also our fellow devotees should not be restricted to this area of the forum, we should be allowed to enter christin debates from our vantage point for insight may be gained by both partys.

Hinduism is one of the most beautiful and ancient of religions, it is a shame that there are not more of you here. My the gods bless you!

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Hinduism is one of the most beautiful and ancient of religions, it is a shame that there are not more of you here. My the gods bless you!

May bhagavan bless you as well beloved it is good to know that i have people in my corner.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Sorry, I hope you don't mind my asking you why you believe you are 'restricted' to this area of the forum ? You can join in any debate (as long as it is not carried out in an "Discuss individual Releligions" Forum). Please feel free to PM me if you need more help; there is no question of your being relagated to any area; I am not sure where you got that Idea, and I hope we can help you understand the 'status Quo'

Michel

Well were this started was with mike182 i was debateing an issue on a perticalaur area of the forum and this mod stated that it was a christen debate on homosexuality not from bhagavans(hindu) standpoint, so he deleted my posts trying to silence krsnas words for there not my own that i speak anyway, and i took offense to that, as i told him karma will deal him a blow for that action, for every action there's a just reaction, and as stated in the bhagavad-gita krsna does not like when his devotees are treated unfairly.

 

[Darkdale]

it is good to know that i have people in my corner.

Both of our religions came from the ancient Indo-European peoples - at least, that is what a small majority of anthropologists believe. There are many similarities between Hindu mythology and Norse mythology. We also share a lot of the same values at the more common, day-to-day level. But, if my ancestors were Indian, I would be Hindu. Being that my ancestors are Northern European, I am Asatuar, or heathen.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Both of our religions came from the ancient Indo-European peoples - at least, that is what a small majority of anthropologists believe. There are many similarities between Hindu mythology and Norse mythology. We also share a lot of the same values at the more common, day-to-day level. But, if my ancestors were Indian, I would be Hindu. Being that my ancestors are Northern European, I am Asatuar, or heathen.

Beloved it does not matter that your are of heathen nature, for the source is the same we merely call him by diffrent names even tho it causes confusion,bhagavan-krsna states in the bhagavad-gita.......that to serve him in bhakti you will surely abtain him, no matter what that path may be if your heart is in the right place the results is the same,many blessings to you beloved hit me with a post soon so that we may continue this convo.:hug:

 

[Ardent Listener]

Both of our religions came from the ancient Indo-European peoples - at least, that is what a small majority of anthropologists believe. There are many similarities between Hindu mythology and Norse mythology. We also share a lot of the same values at the more common, day-to-day level. But, if my ancestors were Indian, I would be Hindu. Being that my ancestors are Northern European, I am Asatuar, or heathen.

Darkdale,

Are you refering to the "true" (not nazi) Indo-european Aryans?

 

[Darkdale]

Darkdale,

Are you refering to the "true" (not nazi) Indo-european Aryans?

lol yes, the Nazi's came like 4,000 years later. But I should rephrase: The people I am talking about are the Proto-Indo-European peoples.

 

[Darkdale]

Beloved it does not matter that your are of heathen nature, for the source is the same we merely call him by diffrent names even tho it causes confusion,bhagavan-krsna states in the bhagavad-gita.......that to serve him in bhakti you will surely abtain him, no matter what that path may be if your heart is in the right place the results is the same,many blessings to you beloved hit me with a post soon so that we may continue this convo.:hug:

I agree in a sense. I believe that it is honorable to worship the gods of our people, but to also respect the gods of others. Pagans, Heathens, and Hindus all share a love of their gods, all are respectful to the gods of others - though few of us take kindly to those who claim to have the only true god, or threaten us with death or hell if we don't adopt their religion and culture.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Darkdale,

Are you refering to the "true" (not nazi) Indo-european Aryans?

Oh ardent listener i would hope that he is refering to the "true" indo-european aryans.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

lol yes, the Nazi's came like 4,000 years later. But I should rephrase: The people I am talking about are the Proto-Indo-European peoples.

hahahahahah.....thankyou beloved for the correction.:biglaugh:

 

[Darkdale]

Oh ardent listener i would hope that he is refering to the "true" indo-european aryans.

Yes, the Germans were simply trying to revive the old tribal societies of the past. The Nazis were confused about their own importance and power. They exhausted themselves and millions of people died. But if you'll notice they took their swastika, a once beautiful Hindu symbol, as their shield. Very sad.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

Yes, the Germans were simply trying to revive the old tribal societies of the past. The Nazis were confused about their own importance and power. They exhausted themselves and millions of people died. But if you'll notice they took their swastika, a once beautiful Hindu symbol, as their shield. Very sad.

Yes indeed beloved, that is why they suffered the karmic results for that collective action that they took as people, truely sad indeed.

 

[Darkdale]

Yes indeed beloved, that is why they suffered the karmic results for that collective action that they took as people, truely sad indeed.

True, they did incur a great deal of bad "luck" (karma). Though, I am so proud of the Hindu people, who have not used their great numbers to spread out and try to convert other peoples with violence and hatred. We can say the same for Buddhism (which I really dislike as a religion, but at least they are peaceful).

So what breed of Hinduism do you follow? Are you a Brahmin?

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

True, they did incur a great deal of bad "luck" (karma). Though, I am so proud of the Hindu people, who have not used their great numbers to spread out and try to convert other peoples with violence and hatred. We can say the same for Buddhism (which I really dislike as a religion, but at least they are peaceful).

So what breed of Hinduism do you follow? Are you a Brahmin?

Ah good question......what i follow is the aspect of hinduism that is bhakti-yoga or devotion to the surpreme personality of Godhead(bhagavan-vasudeva-sri-krsna), i do not adhere to the devotion of the absolute inpersonal brahmin for that is merely the aura of the divine that is formless, oh darkdale for within bhakti all else is gained for it is the song of love between devotee and God, and by his grace alone enlightinment is achieved,many blessings to you.