Bhai Prithi Chand and Manohar Das

[ronki23]

The son of the 4th Guru Ram Das was Guru Arjun Dev, the 5th Guru. The son of Guru Ram Das and brother of Guru Arjun Dev was Prithi Chand. When Guru Arjun Dev went away on some business, he wrote letters to Guru Ram Das; Prithi Chand hid 3 of the letters from Guru Ram Das and regularly stole money from the Gurudwara charity. Prithi Chand wanted to succeed Guru Ram Das but was found out.

Prithi Chand was responsible for the martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev

The son of Prithi Chand was Manohar Das: he too held a grudge against Guru Arjun Dev and his son Guru Har Gobind. He fought with the Mughals against Guru Hargobind.

@JustGeorge @Aupmanyav @Jainarayan @sayak83 @mangalavara

Is this the Sikh version of Mahabharat ?

 

[mangalavara]

Is this the Sikh version of Mahabharat ?

No idea. I’ve not even read summaries of Mahābhārata’s contents.

 

[ronki23]

No idea. I’ve not even read summaries of Mahābhārata’s contents.

You are Hindu but never read Mahabharat?

I read the Amar Chitra Katha and another book version of it

 

[Jainarayan]

Is this the Sikh version of Mahabharat ?

I know very little about Sikh history.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The son of the 4th Guru Ram Das was Guru Arjun Dev, the 5th Guru. The son of Guru Ram Das and brother of Guru Arjun Dev was Prithi Chand. When Guru Arjun Dev went away on some business, he wrote letters to Guru Ram Das; Prithi Chand hid 3 of the letters from Guru Ram Das and regularly stole money from the Gurudwara charity. Prithi Chand wanted to succeed Guru Ram Das but was found out.
Prithi Chand was responsible for the martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev
The son of Prithi Chand was Manohar Das: he too held a grudge against Guru Arjun Dev and his son Guru Har Gobind. He fought with the Mughals against Guru Hargobind.
Is this the Sikh version of Mahabharat ?

You can say that. These conflicts do exist, ideological or for supremacy. Even Guru Nanak's son, Sri Chand, did not stay with Sikhism and founded the Udasin Akharas (There are now three of them).

Akhil Bharatiya Akhara Parishad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mangalavara]

You are Hindu but never read Mahabharat?

I’ve read a few pages of it. What really interests me are Upanishads and Puranas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I too have not read Mahabharata as such. But I have read Srimad Bhagawat Purana since my childhood. I think I got all the stories.
But reading the original will have its own literary delights. It is the same with Sri Rama Charit Manas (Tulsi's Ramayana). The verses are very sensitive, very wise, and a delight to read.

 

[ajay0]

Here is a framework for comparison.

The five vices in Sikhism are Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (egoism).

Duryodhana suffered from egoism related jealousy, and greed for the empire. Same too with Prithi Chand who sought to be the next Guru and heir.

For me, what it showcases is that due to vice, they were not deserving of power and the responsibilities that came with it. Even if they came to power, it would lead to inauspiciousness, regression and ruin in the long run.

Kingdoms and empires rise due to good leadership and virtuous rulers, and fall when vicious and decadent rulers come to power.

 

[ronki23]

Here is a framework for comparison.

The five vices in Sikhism are Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (egoism).

Duryodhana suffered from egoism related jealousy, and greed for the empire. Same too with Prithi Chand who sought to be the next Guru and heir.

For me, what it showcases is that due to vice, they were not deserving of power and the responsibilities that came with it. Even if they came to power, it would lead to inauspiciousness, regression and ruin in the long run.

Kingdoms and empires rise due to good leadership and virtuous rulers, and fall when vicious and decadent rulers come to power.

Why did Prithi Chand (and Manohar Das) want to be Guru ? A Guru was not a King, he was a humble and selfless individual: he would practice humility. Prithi Chand and Manohar Das were none of these

 

[Aupmanyav]

For some, it is their mental make-up. They want to be considered as leaders and are jealous of those who are more popular than them.

 

[ajay0]

Why did Prithi Chand (and Manohar Das) want to be Guru ? A Guru was not a King, he was a humble and selfless individual: he would practice humility. Prithi Chand and Manohar Das were none of these

Prestige was attached to the post of the Sikh Guru, and there were thousands of followers then. That could have been a reason why it was coveted by Prithi Chand.

He was also the eldest son of Guru Ram Das, and hence he may have felt himself to be the rightful heir to his father and the next Guru.

However since Prithi Chand lacked the qualifications for the same, Guru Ram Das decided that Arjan Dev , who had the requisite qualifications, to be the next Guru.

I think if Prithi Chand had become the Guru, Sikhism may have decayed and faded away as a religious institution.

 

[ronki23]

Prestige was attached to the post of the Sikh Guru, and there were thousands of followers then. That could have been a reason why it was coveted by Prithi Chand.

He was also the eldest son of Guru Ram Das, and hence he may have felt himself to be the rightful heir to his father and the next Guru.

However since Prithi Chand lacked the qualifications for the same, Guru Ram Das decided that Arjan Dev , who had the requisite qualifications, to be the next Guru.

I think if Prithi Chand had become the Guru, Sikhism may have decayed and faded away as a religious institution.

For some, it is their mental make-up. They want to be considered as leaders and are jealous of those who are more popular than them.

As I have told @JustGeorge , my father is one of 8 siblings; 4 of the siblings (including my father) passed away. Despite having all of my grandparents' inheritance between them, 2 (or 3) of the remaining siblings are trying to take money from my family including the money from 2 other siblings and their families. So this is why such stories are important to me.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nobody will take anything with them. As we say, "Lakshmi is 'chalayaman'" (does not stay anywhere long). What people get is according to chance, probability and uncertainty. Nothing to worry, The same happened to me for two generations (uncle, brother), and I am none the worse for it.

 

[ajay0]

The teachings of Kabir is also there in the Guru Granth Sahib, and he is a revered figure in both Hinduism and Sikhism.

Kabir had emphasized the importance of critical examination to distinguish between virtuous and vicious characters.

I had created a thread in this regard...

Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...

Hell is truth seen too late; duty neglected in its season. - Tryon Edwards Many gullible people fall tragically victim to the slick tongues of conning fraudsters and pseudo-scholars, and end up having wasted a substantial amount of their youth, time, resources and energy chasing falsehood and...

www.religiousforums.com

Using the framework of the five vices for comparison, you can critically examine and see for yourself whether Prithi Chand was a saintly figure or not.

The five vices in Sikhism are Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (egoism).

There was obviously differences between Prithi Chand and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev as the former's followers controlled Amritsar (holy place of Sikhism ) and Guru Arjan Dev had to relocate to an another place. It was under Guru Gobind Singh, great-grandson of Guru Arjan Dev, that this control was relinquished.

It is possible that due to egoism, Prithi Chand was not able to accept his younger brother Arjan Dev as the Sikh Guru and challenged his father Guru Ram Das's judgement in this regard. Greed for prestige, power and wealth may also could have been a motive for Prithi Chand.

In terms of proper conduct and behavior, Prithi Chand should have accepted Guru Ram Das's judgement and aided the new Guru in his duties.

However he apparently ended up creating obstructions for the new Guru.

 

[ronki23]

The teachings of Kabir is also there in the Guru Granth Sahib, and he is a revered figure in both Hinduism and Sikhism.

Kabir had emphasized the importance of critical examination to distinguish between virtuous and vicious characters.

I had created a thread in this regard...

Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...

Hell is truth seen too late; duty neglected in its season. - Tryon Edwards Many gullible people fall tragically victim to the slick tongues of conning fraudsters and pseudo-scholars, and end up having wasted a substantial amount of their youth, time, resources and energy chasing falsehood and...

www.religiousforums.com

Using the framework of the five vices for comparison, you can critically examine and see for yourself whether Prithi Chand was a saintly figure or not.

The five vices in Sikhism are Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (egoism).

There was obviously differences between Prithi Chand and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev as the former's followers controlled Amritsar (holy place of Sikhism ) and Guru Arjan Dev had to relocate to an another place. It was under Guru Gobind Singh, great-grandson of Guru Arjan Dev, that this control was relinquished.

It is possible that due to egoism, Prithi Chand was not able to accept his younger brother Arjan Dev as the Sikh Guru and challenged his father Guru Ram Das's judgement in this regard. Greed for prestige, power and wealth may also could have been a motive for Prithi Chand.

In terms of proper conduct and behavior, Prithi Chand should have accepted Guru Ram Das's judgement and aided the new Guru in his duties.

However he apparently ended up creating obstructions for the new Guru.

Nobody will take anything with them. As we say, "Lakshmi is 'chalayaman'" (does not stay anywhere long). What people get is according to chance, probability and uncertainty. Nothing to worry, The same happened to me for two generations (uncle, brother), and I am none the worse for it.

The teachings of Kabir is also there in the Guru Granth Sahib, and he is a revered figure in both Hinduism and Sikhism.

Kabir had emphasized the importance of critical examination to distinguish between virtuous and vicious characters.

I had created a thread in this regard...

Kabir on the need for critical examination to weed out the false and fraudulent...

Hell is truth seen too late; duty neglected in its season. - Tryon Edwards Many gullible people fall tragically victim to the slick tongues of conning fraudsters and pseudo-scholars, and end up having wasted a substantial amount of their youth, time, resources and energy chasing falsehood and...

www.religiousforums.com

Using the framework of the five vices for comparison, you can critically examine and see for yourself whether Prithi Chand was a saintly figure or not.

The five vices in Sikhism are Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (egoism).

There was obviously differences between Prithi Chand and his younger brother Guru Arjan Dev as the former's followers controlled Amritsar (holy place of Sikhism ) and Guru Arjan Dev had to relocate to an another place. It was under Guru Gobind Singh, great-grandson of Guru Arjan Dev, that this control was relinquished.

It is possible that due to egoism, Prithi Chand was not able to accept his younger brother Arjan Dev as the Sikh Guru and challenged his father Guru Ram Das's judgement in this regard. Greed for prestige, power and wealth may also could have been a motive for Prithi Chand.

In terms of proper conduct and behavior, Prithi Chand should have accepted Guru Ram Das's judgement and aided the new Guru in his duties.

However he apparently ended up creating obstructions for the new Guru.

@JustGeorge @mangalavara

I hope I have explained my situation properly. I am 33 years old and my father is one of 8 siblings. Only 4 siblings survive now. Naturally 3 siblings have grandchildren and 3 have children.

4 of the siblings have divided my grandparents' inheritance between them while the other 5 did not received anything. Now at least 2 of those 4 siblings are trying to take EVEN MORE from my family and 2 other siblings and their families.

The Bhagavad Gita and Krishna say I can kill them but I don't think I can go to that extreme!

How did the Sikhs deal with this problem? What happened to Manohar Das?

 

[ronki23]

I’ve read a few pages of it. What really interests me are Upanishads and Puranas.

Mahabharat is really interesting. For me it is interesting because the Pandavas initially fought for Drona but then during the Battle of Kurukshetra they fought against Drona and their great Uncle Bheeshma. The story of taking oaths and allegiances even if they were for the wrong reasons

 

[mangalavara]

The Bhagavad Gita and Krishna say I can kill them but I don't think I can go to that extreme!

You can slay combatants on a battlefield according to Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. Are you and those individuals warriors?

 

[ajay0]

@JustGeorge @mangalavara

I hope I have explained my situation properly. I am 33 years old and my father is one of 8 siblings. Only 4 siblings survive now. Naturally 3 siblings have grandchildren and 3 have children.

4 of the siblings have divided my grandparents' inheritance between them while the other 5 did not received anything. Now at least 2 of those 4 siblings are trying to take EVEN MORE from my family and 2 other siblings and their families.

The Bhagavad Gita and Krishna say I can kill them but I don't think I can go to that extreme!

How did the Sikhs deal with this problem? What happened to Manohar Das?

The legal system in ancient India during the times of Krishna and Pandavas, or medieval India during the time of Sikh Gurus was vastly different from present times. The present legal system demands presenting proofs and documents in a court of law and convincing the judge and jury with coherent arguments, so as to win your case peacefully. If you take up arms and weapons you will soon end up in prison.

Dharma means that one is oriented in time and space , properly understands one's duties, responsibilities and implement them.

 

[ronki23]

You can slay combatants on a battlefield according to Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. Are you and those individuals warriors?

We are of the Kshatriya caste

 

[ronki23]

The legal system in ancient India during the times of Krishna and Pandavas, or medieval India during the time of Sikh Gurus was vastly different from present times. The present legal system demands presenting proofs and documents in a court of law and convincing the judge and jury with coherent arguments, so as to win your case peacefully. If you take up arms and weapons you will soon end up in prison.

Dharma means that one is oriented in time and space , properly understands one's duties, responsibilities and implement them.

Whatever happened to Mehraban ?