Bible Alone.. For Catholic's

[sojourner]

Unfortunately, this thread clearly shows that religious bigotry is alive & well, and it certainly isn't always in regard to Catholicism.

As a person who's been involved in ecumenical activities for decades now, I frankly often feel more comfortable around Muslims and Jews than some Christians, and probably that's because they're also often verbally attacked as well by some Christians steeped in religious bigotry.

The disconnect, as I see it, is that Christianity was never intended to be the “mainstream.” It has always flourished “on the edges” of the societal power structures. When it has become the mainstream, it has become entitled. And that entitlement has led to bigotry. In the Middle East, Islam is more entitled. Where it is not in the majority (which is the same for Judaism), it is less so. It’s too bad that the element of entitlement has to taint what is otherwise decent religion.

 

[sojourner]

I haven't read them, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

The irony is that when contemplating converting to Catholicism in my early 30's, I used mostly Protestant theologians, with Martin Marty [Lutheran] being one of my favorites, as I did not trust any single religious source.

It’s always good to broaden one’s research and exposure.

 

[Dogknox20]

Nope, that was only for the disciples. He never said that to the Pope.

John 21:16
Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

Jesus appointed Peter the Shepherd of God' flock!
Jesus gave Peter his Keys to heaven!
Peter spoke for Jesus in Jesus' name Peter had the Authority of Jesus!

Christians have Always had a head spokesman to represent Their Church! A fool would think men do not need a reprehensive of an institution!
The City has the mayor to represent the city!
The School had the Dean.
The Country has the President
The Fire Department has the Fire Chief!
The Country appoints Ambassadors to speak for us to the world! ALL...

Wildswanderer all would fall apart if there was NO spokesman!
Your church has the Pastor to speak for your Church....
Pope Clement I
“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy” (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
Wildswanderer There was a Pope when Martin Luther protested! History proves you wrong! There have always been a head spokesmen for the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church Jesus is ALWAYS WITH to the very end of time! You MUST reject the words of God to say God failed to establish his Church on ROCK! FACT: You REJECT God by rejecting Jesus' Body!

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)

Second Century
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125)
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)

Third Century

1. 
   16 St. Callistus I (217-22)
   17. St. Urban I (222-30)
   18. St. Pontain (230-35)
   
   19 St. Anterus (235-36)
   20. St. Fabian (236-50)
   21. St. Cornelius (251-53)
   22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
   23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
   24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
   25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
   26. St. Felix I (269-274)
   27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
   28. St. Caius (283-296)
   29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
   
   
   1. 
      Fourth Century

1. 
   30 St. Marcellus I (308-309)
   etc
   etc
   An unbroken linage of Popes from Peter to Francis!
   265 popes up to 2022
   

 

[metis]

The disconnect, as I see it, is that Christianity was never intended to be the “mainstream.” It has always flourished “on the edges” of the societal power structures. When it has become the mainstream, it has become entitled. And that entitlement has led to bigotry.

True to a point, but it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even in the 1st century Church politics was being played as Paul cited in his epistles. In the 2nd century Church divisions within the ranks occurred, some with their own set of scriptures.

Constantine was a mixed bag, as the Church was allowed to flourish and set up all sorts of institutions to make life better and more humane, but the penalty was that $ and power attract, which is also why Judas betrayed Christ-- so it wasn't new.

But by the time of Constantine, there were churches with bishops scattered throughout the Mediterranean and some other locations, thus councils were formed over the decades and centuries to try and keep the Church on course and also to adjust to new situations. So, ya, there was and is that ongoing problem as you say, but there's also a lot of good that came out of this "unholy alliance" as well.

We always need to remember that the Church was not made for perfect people but for all of us who screw up. And I got plenty of screwups that I've committed over my 76 years, let me tell ya!

 

[metis]

John 21:16
Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

Jesus appointed Peter the Shepherd of God' flock!
Jesus gave Peter his Keys to heaven!
Peter spoke for Jesus in Jesus' name Peter had the Authority of Jesus!

Christians have Always had a head spokesman to represent Their Church! A fool would think men do not need a reprehensive of an institution!
The City has the mayor to represent the city!
The School had the Dean.
The Country has the President
The Fire Department has the Fire Chief!
The Country appoints Ambassadors to speak for us to the world! ALL...

Wildswanderer all would fall apart if there was NO spokesman!
Your church has the Pastor to speak for your Church....
Pope Clement I
“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy” (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father” (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
Wildswanderer There was a Pope when Martin Luther protested! History proves you wrong! There have always been a head spokesmen for the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church Jesus is ALWAYS WITH to the very end of time! You MUST reject the words of God to say God failed to establish his Church on ROCK! FACT: You REJECT God by rejecting Jesus' Body!

1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)

Second Century
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125)
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)

Third Century

1. 
   16 St. Callistus I (217-22)
   17. St. Urban I (222-30)
   18. St. Pontain (230-35)
   
   19 St. Anterus (235-36)
   20. St. Fabian (236-50)
   21. St. Cornelius (251-53)
   22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
   23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
   24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
   25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
   26. St. Felix I (269-274)
   27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
   28. St. Caius (283-296)
   29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
   
   
   1. 
      Fourth Century

1. 
   30 St. Marcellus I (308-309)
   etc
   etc
   An unbroken linage of Popes from Peter to Francis!
   265 popes up to 2022

It's not as important to list the popes, imo, as it is to recognize the myriads of bishops that could trace their appointments back to the Twelve and their appointees. To me, that speaks even louder than who was the Bishop of Rome and when.

 

[Dogknox20]

What? That's a type of Jesus... what's that got to do with your fantasy purgatory?

The Bronze serpent is a graven Image! Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship. God told the People of Moses to decorate their temple with images. God told them to make two Angel figures to be placed in the Holy Of Holies!
FACT: The word Communion comes from the root word "Communication" to have Communion with symbolic flesh is Idolatry! To drink symbolic Communion with Symbolic blood is IDOLITRY!
To communicate with a symbol is to communicate with an idol!

Scriptures are clear.. There is NO sin allowed to enter heaven! All sin MUST be purged from a soul before it can enter! A person MUST be sanctified before he can enter heaven!

Scriptures are clear... Praying for a person will grant them life! A person that dies with a sin that does NOT lead to death means they are NOT Satan child! The dead souls go to Satan!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Wildswanderer even though only as one escaping through the flames. Explain this verse!
The process of refining gold results in a separation of the gold from impurities.

25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Wildswanderer Implying you will get out, you will pay for your sins!

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come
Wildswanderer Thus after death they will not even be forgiven! This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

The sanctification after death is a "STAGE" the soul goes through to be able to enter heaven it is not a place or has a time limit!

 

[Dogknox20]

It's not as important to list the popes, imo, as it is to recognize the myriads of bishops that could trace their appointments back to the Twelve and their appointees. To me, that speaks even louder than who was the Bishop of Rome and when.

metis hello I hope all is well...

Yes good point... I should have added writings of Early Fathers!
Council of Chalcedon; Pope St. Leo the Great in a letter to Flavian, the archbishop of Constantinople. When the letter was read to the bishops, they replied, “This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the Apostles! So we all believe! Thus the Orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!”

 

[1213]

...
BTW, the best I read along this line was a book entitled "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's an Anglican. It's very well documented from 2nd century writings that do help to make some things clearer. Unfortunately, it's out of print and the only place I saw it was as a used book at Amazon for roughly $50,

Ok, thanks for the tip. But, I doubt it would make it any clearer why “Church” claims to be the source of Bible, but doesn’t believe what it says.

 

[1213]

... "Listen to the Church" as we have in the NEW Testament!...

Please show, where in the Bible it is said "Listen to the Church"?

 

[Dogknox20]

Please show, where in the Bible it is said "Listen to the Church"?

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Martin Luther WAS a Brother!
Arius was also a "Brother"... All Added to the body of Jesus by Baptism are Brothers (or sisters)
1213 this (below) is Scripture Prophesy... Arius WAS AMONG Catholics until he became a "False Teacher"!

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

This Prophesy cannot work in reverse... The Catholic Church was NOT Among Arius! Many believed Arius' false teaching... Arius brought; The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established on ROCK into dispute.... PROVING The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established on ROCK is "The Way of Truth"! This Prophesy also proves the people of the Great Protest the de-Formers are NOT in The Way Of Truth!
1213 This Prophesy held true... Arius was treated as a Pagan! A person outside of God' family!

 

[Wildswanderer]

You don’t have any idea what a priest is, in that context, do you.

A priest is one who makes the sacrifice that expiates sin. A presbyter (that office normally referred to as “priest”) simply stands in for Christ when doing the “ABCs”: absolving sin, blessing souls, and consecrating the Eucharistic bread and wine. Christ is doing the absolving, the blessing, and the consecrating, but since the church is the Body of Christ, the presbyter is simply appointed to be the physical manifestation of Jesus doing these things. S/he is no more a “go-between” or an “intermediary” than you are.

"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

I don't see anything about needed an intercessor other than Jesus. Just the opposite. No one else has to petition God for us.
Come boldly to the throne.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Bible makes a different claim.

No it doesn't. Youneed to distinguish the term Theotokos from mother of God, because there is a subtle but important difference. The term mother of God could be taken wrongly as implying that Mary was the source or originator of God.
Theotokos simply implies that Mary carried God in her womb and gave birth to Him.
Unfortunately, the Roman Church moved from a focus on the Incarnation of God to a veneration of the “Mother of God,” even to the point of honoring her images and praying to her as the “Queen of Heaven!"
Totally unbiblical. Nothing in scripture tells us that Mary intercedes for us.

 

[sojourner]

"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

I don't see anything about needed an intercessor other than Jesus. Just the opposite. No one else has to petition God for us.
Come boldly to the throne.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

This response isn’t germane to my post.

 

[sojourner]

No it doesn't. Youneed to distinguish the term Theotokos from mother of God, because there is a subtle but important difference. The term mother of God could be taken wrongly as implying that Mary was the source or originator of God.
Theotokos simply implies that Mary carried God in her womb and gave birth to Him.
Unfortunately, the Roman Church moved from a focus on the Incarnation of God to a veneration of the “Mother of God,” even to the point of honoring her images and praying to her as the “Queen of Heaven!"
Totally unbiblical. Nothing in scripture tells us that Mary intercedes for us.

One who carries a fetus and gives birth to it is, by definition, a … mother.

 

[Wildswanderer]

OK, prove that purgatory is a false interpretation

I already have. You have to prove it exists from scripture. Impossible! Scripture never mentioned such a place.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, you don't accept the Apostle's Creed that refers to the "communion if saints", which always was interpretated as being saints both in God's heavenly and earthly Kingdom.

Nothing in there about praying to people.

 

[Wildswanderer]

One who carries a fetus and gives birth to it is, by definition, a … mother.

A mother, not the mother of God. A being that always exists has no parents.

 

[sojourner]

I already have. You have to prove it exists from scripture. Impossible! Scripture never mentioned such a place.

Incorrect. Scripture isn’t about “proof.” It’s about interpretation.

 

[sojourner]

A mother, not the mother of God. A being that always exists has no parents.

It does if, as per Philippians, that being gives up its divinity to become human.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Saints are In Heaven.. They are sanctified!

We are never told to pray to people.
This is scripture:
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Not this:

Hail, Holy Queen”:
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last.”

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God.

The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers.
Mary and the saints are not omniscient, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?

Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities the Bible strongly condemns!