Bible Alone.. For Catholic's

[sojourner]

If God is not a fact to you do you really have faith?
God has to be experienced. I thought that would be obvious. But the evidence for his existence is overwhelming.
Vain rituals are often things like listening to someone drone in Latin, recite the same prayers over and over, using beads, ( where is that in the Bible?)
Many churches are very ritualistic, it's easy to zone out and do the same thing every week.
Even communion can become just a thing you do without thought.

1) of course! That’s what faith is.
2) Yes, God is experienced. I still have yet to see empirical evidence (outside my own experiences) for God’s factual existence. It just ain’t there. No pictures, no audible voices, nothing that can be measured and repeated.
3) I fail to see how repetition is “empty of the Spirit.” It can be, but it can also be a very effective and deeply spiritual act of deep contemplation. When something is repeated, it builds memory, and becomes ingrained.
4) Not everything valid is “in the Bible.” I just don’t ascribe to that peurile nonsense.
5) Yes, ritual is good, because it provides a structure for worship, and helps to focus one’s attention. The argument: “It’s the same thing each week — it gets boring” can be effectively countered with, “So’s the beating of my heart, but I don’t want that to change up too often.”
6) spirituality isn’t primarily a “head thing.” I’m not too concerned about doing things “without thought.” Sometimes intuition is better than analysis. Spirituality is primarily a “heart thing,” and quieting the mind allows the intuitive space to open us to holy possibility.

Obviously repetition doesn’t work for you. But it does work for me — and for many, many others. that doesn’t mean that we’re “wrong,” or that you’re “right” — or that we’re “right” and you’re “wrong.” It’s just a difference of approach to worship.

 

[Wildswanderer]

) Yes, God is experienced. I still have yet to see empirical evidence (outside my own experiences) for God’s factual existence. It just ain’t there. No pictures, no audible voices, nothing that can be measured and repeated.

Nature is all the proof I need. It's impossible to believe it happened without a creator for anyone rational.
And God is too large to measure.
I thought that the Catholic church had all kinds of documentation of miracles?

 

[sojourner]

Nature is all the proof I need. It's impossible to believe it happened without a creator for anyone rational.
And God is too large to measure.
I thought that the Catholic church had all kinds of documentation of miracles?

No. “Nature” is no proof.

 

[Dogknox20]

Ooookaaayyy…

And…?

You said.. Not even God is a “fact,” because facts require proof.
The theology is that we’re all divine, since our life comes through the Spirit of God. The theology is that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, but that doesn’t mean it’s a “fact,” or even “literal.” It’s a belief.

Thus my verse... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No. “Nature” is no proof.

So you think God is hidden? Because he said otherwise.
7 “But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; 8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. 9 Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? 10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.


20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[sojourner]

You said.. Not even God is a “fact,” because facts require proof.
The theology is that we’re all divine, since our life comes through the Spirit of God. The theology is that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, but that doesn’t mean it’s a “fact,” or even “literal.” It’s a belief.

Thus my verse... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Fine. I call habeas corpus. Trot Jesus on out here and we’ll see. Otherwise, this is a matter of faith and not fact.

 

[sojourner]

So you think God is hidden? Because he said otherwise.
7 “But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you; 8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you, or let the fish in the sea inform you. 9 Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? 10 In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.


20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

And this is descriptive of faith — not fact. I get it: I, too, see God within nature. For me, “the world is God’s body” is a wonderful theological construct. I derive a great deal of meaning from that. But it’s not fact. There’s nothing there to measure, there’s nothing there to perceive with the five senses, there’s nothing there to suggest that a river is anything more or other than what it is: a moving, fluid mass, with defined borders. There’s no third-party confirmation. There’s no repeatable test. It’s all faith.

 

[metis]

Yes I know about that judgement.

Clearly, you didn't based on my post #309 with your response on post #315. But maybe you just forgot?

 

[Wildswanderer]

And this is descriptive of faith — not fact. I get it: I, too, see God within nature. For me, “the world is God’s body” is a wonderful theological construct. I derive a great deal of meaning from that. But it’s not fact. There’s nothing there to measure, there’s nothing there to perceive with the five senses, there’s nothing there to suggest that a river is anything more or other than what it is: a moving, fluid mass, with defined borders. There’s no third-party confirmation. There’s no repeatable test. It’s all faith.

Not. It's evidence of the creator. You cannot pretend that the most simple artwork on earth created itself- no one would believe you. But you can pretend that your extremely complex unfathomable DNA and the whole complex systems that rule nature were formed by nothing for no reason? A person would have to be insane to believe that.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Clearly, you didn't based on my post #309 with your response on post #315. But maybe you just forgot?

We go to heaven or hell when we die. Judgement for the deeds comes later.

 

[sojourner]

Not. It's evidence of the creator. You cannot pretend that the most simple artwork on earth created itself- no one would believe you. But you can pretend that your extremely complex unfathomable DNA and the whole complex systems that rule nature were formed by nothing for no reason? A person would have to be insane to believe that.

How? How is any of that evidence of the entity we’ve been taught is “God?” Where are the measurements that must accompany fact? Where is the third-party corroboration? Where is the repeatable test? It’s not “evidence.” “Evidence” stands up in a court of law. Your argument would cause the opposing counsel to demand habeas corpus. and there’s no body to produce.

What I can’t figure out is, with all the stuff in the Bible about faith: Peter walking on the water until he thought about it too much, faith moving mountains, faith, rather than sight, being the greater blessing for the believer, etc., as a Christian, why isn’t faith good enough for you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

How? How is any of that evidence of the entity we’ve been taught is “God?” Where are the measurements that must accompany fact? Where is the third-party corroboration? Where is the repeatable test? It’s not “evidence.” “Evidence” stands up in a court of law. Your argument would cause the opposing counsel to demand habeas corpus. and there’s no body to produce.

What I can’t figure out is, with all the stuff in the Bible about faith: Peter walking on the water until he thought about it too much, faith moving mountains, faith, rather than sight, being the greater blessing for the believer, etc., as a Christian, why isn’t faith good enough for you?

Faith is reasonable and has evidence supporting it.
We are not supposed to have blind faith but to be wise as serpents.

 

[Dogknox20]

Fine. I call habeas corpus. Trot Jesus on out here and we’ll see. Otherwise, this is a matter of faith and not fact.

sojourner Question should we trot "Winston Churchill" on out as well? Do you believe there was a man "Winston Churchill"?
.
Or Hitler.... Do you believe there was a man "Hitler" should we have to trot him out here as well?! Is it a FACT!?
Or Genghis Khan.... Do you believe there was a man Genghis Khan? Y or N ...Why?! Is it a FACT!?
Or "Simon Peter" the Chief Apostle Y or N?! Should we have to trot him out here as well?! Is it a FACT!?

 

[sojourner]

Faith is reasonable and has evidence supporting it.
We are not supposed to have blind faith but to be wise as serpents.

“…How blessed are the ones who have not seen, and yet believe…”

There’s a difference between considered faith and blind faith. Neither involveds empirical evidence.

 

[sojourner]

sojourner Question should we trot "Winston Churchill" on out as well? Do you believe there was a man "Winston Churchill"?
.
Or Hitler.... Do you believe there was a man "Hitler" should we have to trot him out here as well?! Is it a FACT!?
Or Genghis Khan.... Do you believe there was a man Genghis Khan? Y or N ...Why?! Is it a FACT!?
Or "Simon Peter" the Chief Apostle Y or N?! Should we have to trot him out here as well?! Is it a FACT!?

Immaterial. These are human beings of whom there is historical record. That’s evidence.

 

[metis]

We go to heaven or hell when we die. Judgement for the deeds comes later.

That doesn't make any sense, and also it is not scriptural but is made up. Why can't you just admit you made a mistake, which is not a sign of weakness but one of honesty and strength.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That doesn't make any sense, and also it is not scriptural but is made up. Why can't you just admit you made a mistake, which is not a sign of weakness but one of honesty and strength.

It's what scripture teaches. I gave you scripture showing that we go to heaven or hell immediately after death.

 

[Dogknox20]

Immaterial. These are human beings of whom there is historical record. That’s evidence.

Early writings tell us there was a man named Jesus!
Josephus was born to a wealthy family in the year A.D. 37 and led the Jewish revolutionary forces in Galilee against the Romans. When his troops were decimated in battle, Josephus switched sides and claimed God had prophesied through him that the victorious Roman general Vespasian would become emperor. As it turns out, that is exactly what happened, and Josephus was allowed to serve in Vespasian’s court. Josephus’s historical writings include The Jewish Wars and a history of the Jewish people known as the Antiquities of the Jews. The latter document mentions Jesus in a short phrase and in another longer section.

The shorter reference is in Book 20 and describes the stoning of law breakers in A.D. 62. One of the criminals is described as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James.” etc

Logic alone says; the Apostles did not spring out of thin air all claiming their God was Jesus!
A whole Church with over 2.2 Billion people and a 2000 year history did not spring out of someone's imagination!
The Early Church Fathers all claim their was a Man named Jesus that claimed to be their God!
Some people will die for a cause but NOT hundreds of Martyrs all claiming Jesus is their God, all willing to die for what they believe!

The many Miracles attributed to Jesus, should erase all doubt!
The many Miracles attributed to Mary, The Mother of God" should erase all doubt!

 

[sojourner]

Early writings tell us there was a man named Jesus!
Josephus was born to a wealthy family in the year A.D. 37 and led the Jewish revolutionary forces in Galilee against the Romans. When his troops were decimated in battle, Josephus switched sides and claimed God had prophesied through him that the victorious Roman general Vespasian would become emperor. As it turns out, that is exactly what happened, and Josephus was allowed to serve in Vespasian’s court. Josephus’s historical writings include The Jewish Wars and a history of the Jewish people known as the Antiquities of the Jews. The latter document mentions Jesus in a short phrase and in another longer section.

The shorter reference is in Book 20 and describes the stoning of law breakers in A.D. 62. One of the criminals is described as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James.” etc

Logic alone says; the Apostles did not spring out of thin air all claiming their God was Jesus!
A whole Church with over 2.2 Billion people and a 2000 year history did not spring out of someone's imagination!
The Early Church Fathers all claim their was a Man named Jesus that claimed to be their God!
Some people will die for a cause but NOT hundreds of Martyrs all claiming Jesus is their God, all willing to die for what they believe!

The many Miracles attributed to Jesus, should erase all doubt!
The many Miracles attributed to Mary, The Mother of God" should erase all doubt!

The historic Jesus isn’t particularly in doubt. But the mythic Jesus has no real evidence to support his existence. If you have some, I’d love to see it.

 

[metis]

It's what scripture teaches. I gave you scripture showing that we go to heaven or hell immediately after death.

You've got to be kidding!!! Here, maybe do some reading: What Does the Bible Say About Judgment Day? (openbible.info)

Here is just one sample: Matthew25[31-34] 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Some people will be judged prior to judgement day, but the scriptures over and over again states that there will eventually be an overall judgement day for most others...