Hi
@Dogknox20 and
@URAVIP2ME
Dogknox20 said to @URAVIP2ME : " URAVIP2ME I must point out there was only ONE (1) Christian congregation until 1054 A.D.! That ONE Congregation was the ONLY Church Jesus established, it is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church none other!" (POST #11)
Clear responded : “This is false historically.
Firstly, the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church” of Roman claim did not exist in this early period but came into being in later centuries and it was a different church with different aims and procedures, and goals than the original simple roman congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ which was started there centuries before.
Secondly, The first Christian church was the church in Jerusalem and Rome would have been subject to Jerusalem and it’s authority if one is to claim apostolic origins and leadership.
Thirdly, there were many other Churches of Jesus Christ that were older and of higher priority of size and pre-eminence than that of the simple roman congregation. For example, there were churches in Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Thessalonia, Phillipi, Corinth, etc.
Similar points can be made for the many canons that existed and now exist. While the Roman Catholic Church of later centuries certainly had a right to determine the canon it would hold to, it creates no responsibility for other churches to adopt the same canon and they were left free to adopt their own canons, such as the eastern Orthodox/Ethiopian, or the smaller canon of the churches of the Reformation. “ (post #29)
Dogknox20 claimed : “Clear your information is mixed up! Jesus established ONE Church on rock... The (Other) Churches in the scriptures answered to it. “ (post #43)
You claim is irrelevant in that it does not give the congregation in ROME, nor it’s later corrupted organization any additional authority.
1) The Authority upon which the Ancient Church was founded and directed (Eph 2:20)
Of course ancient ecclesiastical authority did NOT center on any single congregation and it’s bishop.
The congregation or Bishop of Antioch did not tell the congregation or bishop of Jerusalem what they were to do.
Rather, the authority which all original christian churches or congregations answered to was the
"foundation of apostles and prophets" (Eph 2:20).
Originally,
an apostle held the authority to ordain a bishop of a congregation and the bishop was directed by the Apostles. The original Bishop was part a brotherhood of equals and the later office of "bishop" created by the organization in rome had the same name, but was a different type of office and he did not have ecclesiatical authority.
There is no historical evidence that the roman congregation ever gained apostolic authority (despite their claim to have had it). For example, there is no evidence that Peter was ever a standing bishop in Rome and he never transferred his apostolic authority to Linus, who was, historically, the first bishop of rome.
2) The claim that there was “only one Christian Congregation” is historically false
Dogknox20 claimed : “URAVIP2ME I must point out there was only ONE (1) Christian congregation until 1054 A.D.! (post #11)
This is an irrational and historically ignorant claim since there were churches in Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Thessalonia, Phillipi, Corinth, etc.
3) The meaning and use of εκλεσσια or “church” in ancient greek
Ignatius was NOT the first usage of the term Καθολικος (Catholic), but the word was ancient and he was using a common greek word and a common usage.
The word “Church” / εκκλεσια in it’s early form as any “gathering”, any “meeting”, any calling or invitation of a group of people.
In this case, it was a gathering toward principles of true religion and the Roman congregation wis only part of the larger εκλεσσια or gathering that has always gone on.
The organization of later centuries that became a political / religious organization in Rome that adopted the title of “Catholic” was not the same as the original congregation but it had evolved into a different organization with different aims and procedures, and goals than the original simple roman congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ.
The original Church was not bent on gaining riches and political power and did not engage in slavery and oppression of the masses as did the roman congregation.
4) The meaning and usage of the Greek term καθολικ “Catholic” in antiquity
I very much agree with Ignatius at Antioch “
Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic (i.e. universal) Church.” where he describes the “universal gathering” of Christians to Christ. The word “καθολικος” (“Catholic”) in greek usage was not a specific application to the congregation in rome any more than it applied to any other congregation, but instead, the word was used to described the gathering of any and all individuals who gathered to Christ, i.e. the ecclesia.
The Christian concept was “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matt 18:20). If Christ was in their midst, then THAT gathering was part of the universal (or “catholic) gathering to Christ. It had nothing to do with Antioch, or Jerusalem or rome.
5) The Concept of the gathering in Early Christianity
In the ancient church, 2nd Clement referred to this concept when telling the earliest judeo-christians, that “
… the Books and the Apostles declare that the church not only exists now, but has been in existence from the beginning. For she was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, but was revealed in the last days in order that she might save us. …” (This gathering toward true principles had been going on long before the roman congregation was in existence (2nd Clement 14:3)
Hermas in his early New Testament (sinaiticus) epistle spoke of the church in describing the gathering as existing from the beginning. He relates :
“Who do you think the elderly woman from whom you received the little book was?” I said : “The Sibyl.” “You are wrong,” he said. “She is not.” “Then who is she?” I said. “The Church” he replied. I said to him “Why, then, is she elderly?” “Because,” he said, “she was created before all things; therefore she is elderly, and for her sake the world was formed.” (Hermas 8:1)
While I think it was good advertising for the roman organization to adopt this word as part of their title, Ignatius was not describing their congregation nor their later organization that had not yet adopted that term and did not yet exist in the later form it evolved into.
Clear
φυσιακω
