Bible claims/interpretations that don't make sense

[JustWondering]

For starters the whole Noah story arc. If not taken literally what twisted message is it trying to convey? If you take it literally there is substantial evidence against it. For instance, if all mammals are descendants from who was on the ark, we would all be horribly inbred. I can concede that the Adam and Eve stories are mythological in nature and not to be taken literally but the Noah story seems too intricate (measurements are given for how big Noah's ship should be for instance) to be dismissed as a parable/fable to teach a lesson.

I had some JW friends growing up that had some practices that didn't make sense to me. The first is their stance against blood transfusions which they support with a verse that says you shouldn't spill your brothers blood (which is clearly a rule against violence) and another that says you should not consume blood (as part of pagan rituals). Since blood transfusions were not a thing in the bronze age, I think its obvious that these verses are being tortuously twisted to support their no transfusion stance. Another is their belief to not celebrate ANYTHING other then Christ's death. This one is supported by a verse where Jesus said not to celebrate his birth but to celebrate his death since that is how we are saved. He never said to celebrate nothing but his death! In fact, didn't Jesus turn water to wine at a wedding celebration?! Before you say it, I am familiar with the JW's belief that wine back in the day was more like a grape beverage than an alcoholic one, and I don't agree with that at all. The bible makes numerous references to getting drunk on wine, so not buying it.

I'm starting this thread so as not to derail another in response to some things @Deeje asked me.

If any of you have any bible verses/claims and/or interpretations of them that don't make sense to you that you would like to discuss/debate, feel free to share.

 

[Phantasman]

For starters the whole Noah story arc. If not taken literally what twisted message is it trying to convey? If you take it literally there is substantial evidence against it. For instance, if all mammals are descendants from who was on the ark, we would all be horribly inbred. I can concede that the Adam and Eve stories are mythological in nature and not to be taken literally but the Noah story seems too intricate (measurements are given for how big Noah's ship should be for instance) to be dismissed as a parable/fable to teach a lesson.

I had some JW friends growing up that had some practices that didn't make sense to me. The first is their stance against blood transfusions which they support with a verse that says you shouldn't spill you brothers blood (which is clearly a rule against violence) and another that says you should not consume blood (as part of pagan rituals). Since blood transfusions were not a thing in the bronze age, I think its obvious that these verses are being tortuously twisted to support their no transfusion stance. Another is their belief to not celebrate ANYTHING other then Christ's death. This one is supported by a verse where Jesus said not to celebrate his birth but to celebrate his death since that is how we are saved. He never said to celebrate nothing but his death! In fact, didn't Jesus turn water to wine at a wedding celebration?! Before you say it, I am familiar with the JW's belief that wine back in the day was more like a grape beverage than an alcoholic one, and I don't agree with that at all. The bible makes numerous references to getting drunk on wine, so not buying it.

I'm starting this thread so as not to derail another in response to some things @Deeje asked me.

If any of you have any bible verses/claims and/or interpretations of them that don't make sense to you that you would like to discuss/debate, feel free to share.

OK found it.

What you post is a JW belief through just another view of OT teachings. The JW are good people. But they are still held captive in the world of flesh, just as the Jews were. Circumcisions, diets, transfusions, rituals, water, fire, are all flesh, not spirit. People tend to judge, and use the flesh to judge by. If a person is fat from overeating all the time, are they not Christian? If they smoke cigarettes are they no way Christian? Drink wine/alcohol? Skydive? Mountain climb? Celebrate one day over another? Go to church on Sundays? Tithe money to the church?

None of there dictate a Christ(ian). They dictate a religion. So then man is left with the question "which one is the right one"?

I say it's the one who understands the Spirit within them. (capital S). You can only get this from the:

1. Words spoken by Jesus when he became Spirit filled (Christ).
2. Seek and accept that same Spirit, listen to it, and follow what it teaches you.

When you start dictating flesh (to others), you are leaving spirit to do so. A person overweight lives as dangerous life (to the body) as a smoker. It comes from desires to oneself, not to others. It is the physical desires the carnal body gains some pleasure from. I don't skydive to kill myself. I skydive for the pleasure it gives. So if I die because I skydived, am I guilty by Spirit? Overeating the taste of good food?

2 Corinthians:

6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

We have our thorns. We cannot be perfect. God knows this. But he knows our hearts better. It is this grace (patience, understanding) that we live by. We are weak (to desires). If we cannot defeat them, we have to have the same grace as God has. He knows the heart. It may not be now but later that desires differ.

For a Christian to say "he's not following Christ" or "she's not acting Christ like" are themselves blind. For they do not know hearts, only flesh.

 

[Deeje]

For starters the whole Noah story arc. If not taken literally what twisted message is it trying to convey? If you take it literally there is substantial evidence against it. For instance, if all mammals are descendants from who was on the ark, we would all be horribly inbred. I can concede that the Adam and Eve stories are mythological in nature and not to be taken literally but the Noah story seems too intricate (measurements are given for how big Noah's ship should be for instance) to be dismissed as a parable/fable to teach a lesson.

Thank you for the opportunity to explore these things JW....are your initials a sign???

LOL

OK.....just for the sake of argument, if we (Bible believers) acknowledge that there is a power in existence that can create matter....something from nothing (for we know that all material things are made of matter and that it had to come from somewhere....right?) and what if this power formed matter into living things and made itself known to those it designed to reflect its own attributes, as intelligent beings who are endowed with brains that can accumulate knowledge and grow in wisdom and experience over time? It is not a stretch for us to believe that this power can do whatever it takes to express its will through that same power because it has a purpose in connection with us and this earth. We do not believe that this creative power has limitations like humans do. He is personified in scripture as male...but he has no gender.

Since the sciences study physical evidence of what has transpired down through time, it is largely dependent upon how scientists interpret that evidence. Two scientists in the same field may come to different conclusions about the same evidence. No one can say for sure that the flood never happened...all they can do is state that they believe it didn't.

New Evidence Suggests Biblical Great Flood Happened

The details of the flood account are solid when you understand that the ratios used in shipbuilding for centuries were based on the ratios of the ark's measurements. It is very stable even in rough seas. The physical landscape, (Mt Ararat) is also a well known landmark. But what was the purpose of flooding the world to deal with the situation that had arisen back then? There were so many figurative references used by others to show what would happen in the future. One especially important one was Jesus' words in Matthew 24:37-39. The story in Genesis 6 explains the necessity.

As for the animals on the ark, it wasn't Noah who chose them, it was God who brought them to him. As the Creator of life, he chose the best physical specimens and no doubt blessed their reproductive powers after the flood was over and the land returned to being productive. The ark itself was huge...3 stories high, so there was plenty of room for all the animals as well as their food and water. Specimens of every "kind" were brought in. This was all done to God's specific instructions, so nothing was left to chance.
There were 7 of some animals and only 2 of others....a breeding pair. The further apart genetics gets the less likelihood there is of genetic problems. God had it all under control.

From our point of view, we see nothing in this scenario that is a challenge for an all powerful God, but obviously it becomes a challenge for humans handicapped with limitations in their knowledge and lacking in spiritual discernment. (2 Corinthians 2:14-16) We understand that "spiritual" people discern things that purely "physical" people cannot process.

I accept the flood account quite readily but others may not...that is what faith is all about. (Hebrews 11:1)

 

[Deeje]

I had some JW friends growing up that had some practices that didn't make sense to me. The first is their stance against blood transfusions which they support with a verse that says you shouldn't spill your brothers blood (which is clearly a rule against violence) and another that says you should not consume blood (as part of pagan rituals). Since blood transfusions were not a thing in the bronze age, I think its obvious that these verses are being tortuously twisted to support their no transfusion stance.

Our stance is based on several passages relating to God's law to Israel. The scripture you mentioned is relating to the sanctity of human life. Murder is called "bloodshed" for a good reason.

Noah was the first person to receive God's command regarding the sanctity of blood. He was told....
"Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you.” However, there was one thing that Jehovah commanded them not to eat: “Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat.”(Genesis 1:29; 9:3, 4)

This command was repeated in Israel's law through Moses (Leviticus 17:13-16) and then reiterated to Christians, many of whom were Gentiles who had no compunction about consuming blood. (Acts 15:28-29) It was so important that it it is mentioned with equal weight for all of God's worshippers from the time humans were permitted to eat meat.

But what do you know medically about blood transfusions? To us transfusing blood is the same as consuming it any other way. If patients cannot eat, they are fed intravenously.

The following video was put out by the Australian Government, warning about the dangers of blood transfusion medicine. It highlights why people need to be cautious and why there are bloodless techniques developed to make blood transfusions today, basically unnecessary. Listen for the words "Morbidity" and "mortality" and understand the seriousness of what is stated by these experts in this field of medicine.
Whole hospitals dedicated to bloodless medicine are springing up all over the world.

For Media | National Blood Authority

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thank you for the opportunity to explore these things JW....are your initials a sign???

LOL

OK.....just for the sake of argument, if we (Bible believers) acknowledge that there is a power in existence that can create matter....something from nothing (for we know that all material things are made of matter and that it had to come from somewhere....right?) and what if this power formed matter into living things and made itself known to those it designed to reflect its own attributes, as intelligent beings who are endowed with brains that can accumulate knowledge and grow in wisdom and experience over time? It is not a stretch for us to believe that this power can do whatever it takes to express its will through that same power because it has a purpose in connection with us and this earth. We do not believe that this creative power has limitations like humans do. He is personified in scripture as male...but he has no gender.

Since the sciences study physical evidence of what has transpired down through time, it is largely dependent upon how scientists interpret that evidence. Two scientists in the same field may come to different conclusions about the same evidence. No one can say for sure that the flood never happened...all they can do is state that they believe it didn't.

New Evidence Suggests Biblical Great Flood Happened

The details of the flood account are solid when you understand that the ratios used in shipbuilding for centuries were based on the ratios of the ark's measurements. It is very stable even in rough seas. The physical landscape, (Mt Ararat) is also a well known landmark. But what was the purpose of flooding the world to deal with the situation that had arisen back then? There were so many figurative references used by others to show what would happen in the future. One especially important one was Jesus' words in Matthew 24:37-39. The story in Genesis 6 explains the necessity.

As for the animals on the ark, it wasn't Noah who chose them, it was God who brought them to him. As the Creator of life, he chose the best physical specimens and no doubt blessed their reproductive powers after the flood was over and the land returned to being productive. The ark itself was huge...3 stories high, so there was plenty of room for all the animals as well as their food and water. Specimens of every "kind" were brought in. This was all done to God's specific instructions, so nothing was left to chance.
There were 7 of some animals and only 2 of others....a breeding pair. The further apart genetics gets the less likelihood there is of genetic problems. God had it all under control.

From our point of view, we see nothing in this scenario that is a challenge for an all powerful God, but obviously it becomes a challenge for humans handicapped with limitations in their knowledge and lacking in spiritual discernment. (2 Corinthians 2:14-16) We understand that "spiritual" people discern things that purely "physical" people cannot process.

I accept the flood account quite readily but others may not...that is what faith is all about. (Hebrews 11:1)

They based that possible source of the flood myth on the Black Sea flood. They got quite a bit wrong. It did not happen in a day. It did not happen in a month, it took almost a year, and that is using the most extreme model:

' "According to the researchers, "40 km3 (10 cu mi) of water poured through each day, two hundred times the flow of the Niagara Falls. The Bosphorus flume roared and surged at full spate for at least three hundred days." '

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia

The same article points out that there was quite a bit of opposition to this flood too. Of course this does not help the Noah' Ark myth at all. It was a very local flood that would not have threatened mankind nor any animal life with extinction. In other words the Ark would have been superfluous. If this flood did happen it was a flood that one could have crawled away from. The only "victims" would have been cities on the sea. Cities cannot walk away people can.

 

[Deeje]

Another is their belief to not celebrate ANYTHING other then Christ's death. This one is supported by a verse where Jesus said not to celebrate his birth but to celebrate his death since that is how we are saved. He never said to celebrate nothing but his death!

Actually, it is the only celebration commanded for Christians. Just as Israel had all their celebrations specifically commanded by God after the golden calf incident, (which showed him that humans cannot be trusted to invent their own festivals) so this is the only one that Christ said to "keep doing". This doesn't mean we can't celebrate anything else, like a wedding or an anniversary or any other family gathering.

We will just avoid any celebrations that have a pagan origin because they would naturally be offensive to God.
We don't need to invent occasions to have get-togethers, especially when they have been borrowed from worshippers of false gods ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18) we are not supposed to touch them.
....we can have occasions to gather for no reason at all....not dictated to by a date on a calendar where everyone just follows along like sheep to the commercial slaughter
....usually its just excuse to have a booze up anyway.

We have no prohibition on alcohol but there is a prohibition on drunkenness. (Proverbs 23:29-33)

Birthdays for example, were not celebrated by Biblical Jews, which is why you will not find Jesus' birthdate recorded in scripture. The exact date of his death is, however.

December 25 was a festival celebrating the Saturnalia in Rome where the customs of Christmas came from.....feasting, merry making, overindulgence in food and alcohol, and gift giving. Northern customs were added like the decorated tree and the yule log....and of course the jolly old man in the red suit who is so generous to rich kids but stingy to the poor ones. What are kids to think?

It is nothing but a commercial greed-fest.

Since Jesus was Jewish, he would not have celebrated his own birthday, let alone anyone else's. The customs associated with birthdays have spiritistic overtones because the birthdate of a child was used by astrologers to cast their horoscope. The lighted candles on a birthday cake were supposed to keep evil spirits away as were the birthday wishes.
God's people were forbidden to adopt the ways and customs of the pagan nations. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12; 20-21) Some ignored the memo.

In fact, didn't Jesus turn water to wine at a wedding celebration?! Before you say it, I am familiar with the JW's belief that wine back in the day was more like a grape beverage than an alcoholic one, and I don't agree with that at all. The bible makes numerous references to getting drunk on wine, so not buying it.

Whoa...where did you get that idea? That is not a belief of ours. Jesus turned water into the finest wine, as it is stated in the account, the director of the feast complemented the groom on reserving the fine wine till last.
Usually they served the good wine first and then when people were tipsy, they didn't care about quality anymore.

(John 2:9-10)

Jesus drank wine on the night of the Passover like everyone else.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Before you say it, I am familiar with the JW's belief that wine back in the day was more like a grape beverage than an alcoholic one,

Do what?! How can you say you're "familiar" with this, when we don't teach this?

Please, be accurate.

Another is their belief to not celebrate ANYTHING other then Christ's death.

Not quite true. We celebrate weddings, anniversaries, and other non-pagan occasions.

I'm beggin ya, please check your accuracy.

 

[Deeje]

What you post is a JW belief through just another view of OT teachings. The JW are good people. But they are still held captive in the world of flesh, just as the Jews were. Circumcisions, diets, transfusions, rituals, water, fire, are all flesh, not spirit.

Sorry but the only thing on your list there that pertains to JW's is transfusions, which I have explained above.

People tend to judge, and use the flesh to judge by. If a person is fat from overeating all the time, are they not Christian? If they smoke cigarettes are they no way Christian? Drink wine/alcohol? Skydive? Mountain climb? Celebrate one day over another? Go to church on Sundays? Tithe money to the church?

It is useful to use scripture when deciding what is a Christian practice and what isn't. People are quick to judge. And we live in the flesh so much of what we have to judge is fleshly....what we practice.

Gluttony is definitely condemned in the Bible, but not all who suffer from obesity are gluttons.

Smokers too demonstrate that they do not value their health or that of others who have to inhale their poison. Any drug addiction is serious, be it prescriptions drugs, recreational drugs like alcohol, hard drugs or tobacco....all reap bad consequences and treat the body and its Maker with disrespect.

Drinking alcohol is fine provided that it does not lead to drunkenness or alcoholism....the scourge of modern society.

Skydiving and extreme sports put lives in danger just for an adrenaline rush. Again not respecting life.

Celebrations that dishonor God are not approved by him. Why would they be?

Sunday worship was started by the Catholic Church as a sneaky way to honor Rome's sun god. Any day is a good day to worship.

Tithing was a Jewish requirement, but like observance of the Sabbath, it was not binding on Christians.

I wish people would check their facts before assuming things that are not true.

 

[Jumi]

Not quite true. We celebrate weddings, anniversaries, and other non-pagan occasions.

Aren't weddings, birthdays, anniversies as much pagan as anything else though?

 

[Deeje]

Aren't weddings, birthdays, anniversies as much pagan as anything else though?

Weddings are in the Bible. Jesus' first miracle was at a wedding.

Anniversaries are in the Bible too. Any event celebrated annually (like the Passover) was an anniversary.

Birthdays are a different kettle of fish, because according to scripture, the day of your death is more important than the day of your birth. That is because we have no record with God when we are born, but we do when we die. There are no birth dates recorded in the Bible because they were only important to those who practiced astrology....which was not permitted in Israel.

The only two people whose birthday celebrations were mentioned were pagan rulers and something horrendous happened in both cases. Pharaoh of Egypt ordered the death of one of his servants in a fit of pique, and at Herod's birthday celebration, John the Baptist was executed to save face with his guests.

If you know where something originated, it helps to make choices.

 

[Jumi]

If you know where something originated, it helps to make choices.

So anything mentioned(except for those you see as negative only instances) in the Bible, even if pagans do it, is not pagan for JWs?

 

[Deeje]

So anything mentioned(except for those you see as negative only instances) in the Bible, even if pagans do it, is not pagan for JWs?

There are things that people do that are common among humans in general....weddings, anniversaries etc. There is nothing pagan about marriage, nor is there any law of God broken if you participate in celebrating those things. What is wrong is adopting pagan celebrations and hiding them under a thin veneer of Christianity. The re-branding doesn't fool God.

Anything that violates God's laws is not OK for us.

 

[Phantasman]

Sorry but the only thing on your list there that pertains to JW's is transfusions, which I have explained above.



It is useful to use scripture when deciding what is a Christian practice and what isn't. People are quick to judge. And we live in the flesh so much of what we have to judge is fleshly....what we practice.

Gluttony is definitely condemned in the Bible, but not all who suffer from obesity are gluttons.

Smokers too demonstrate that they do not value their health or that of others who have to inhale their poison. Any drug addiction is serious, be it prescriptions drugs, recreational drugs like alcohol, hard drugs or tobacco....all reap bad consequences and treat the body and its Maker with disrespect.

Drinking alcohol is fine provided that it does not lead to drunkenness or alcoholism....the scourge of modern society.

Skydiving and extreme sports put lives in danger just for an adrenaline rush. Again not respecting life.

Celebrations that dishonor God are not approved by him. Why would they be?

Sunday worship was started by the Catholic Church as a sneaky way to honor Rome's sun god. Any day is a good day to worship.

Tithing was a Jewish requirement, but like observance of the Sabbath, it was not binding on Christians.

I wish people would check their facts before assuming things that are not true.

I didn't say the list was was JW. I said people (who see orthodox as Christianity).

The list is detrimental to OT teachings that the orthodox (Bible) teach. There is only the Gospel. The Gospel doesn't teach what's on the list.

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus identified "life". And it had to do nothing with what you posted. Working to save the flesh (not smoking, not gluttony, not skydiving, etc.) is a waste of time as the body of flesh profits nothing, yet you try to protect/prolong it.

The words were never meant for flesh, but for mind (spirit/soul).

You judge the flesh whom you know over the spirit whom you don't know.

John:
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

The body cannot be perfect. So why do you try? Sin is of the heart (spirit), not the body (flesh).

The body is already dead. We work with what's alive (quickens). The spirit.

 

[Deeje]

I didn't say the list was was JW. I said people (who see orthodox as Christianity).

"Orthodoxy" is a strange concept IMO. What makes something "orthodox"?

Definition..."following or conforming to the traditional or generally accepted rules or beliefs of a religion, philosophy, or practice."

So we have orthodox religion...orthodox medicine.....orthodox concepts in science etc. But what makes something "generally accepted" by a majority of people?

I think we only have to look at the advertising industry to understand how it happens. Today, its called, "perception management" i.e. leading the masses to a conclusion that is pre-determined in order to control their thinking and behavior. This is done in many ways by politicians, big business, celebrity lifestyle and the mass media in general. Very few people understand how easily their perceptions can be swayed by a good spin.....it doesn't even have to be true, but make it sound convincing, and they will swallow it all....hook, line and sinker.

We are created to trust. That is why betrayal feels so wrong.

The list is detrimental to OT teachings that the orthodox (Bible) teach. There is only the Gospel. The Gospel doesn't teach what's on the list.

I agree...except of course in regard to the sanctity of blood.

"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper." (Acts 15:28-29)

Since this is a teaching of the holy spirit, it must be observed by the flesh because all these things are fleshly activities.

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus identified "life". And it had to do nothing with what you posted. Working to save the flesh (not smoking, not gluttony, not skydiving, etc.) is a waste of time as the body of flesh profits nothing, yet you try to protect/prolong it.

The words were never meant for flesh, but for mind (spirit/soul).

Forgive me but I need the scriptures in a language that is understandable to me in the 21 st century....

John 6:26..."It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (NWT)

Taking that verse out of context is giving it meaning that Jesus did not imply.
Who was Jesus speaking to, and what were the circumstances that led to him saying it?

If you recall, Jesus had just stated a reference to himself being the "bread from heaven" that imparts everlasting life.
The Jews who had followed him after he fed the 5,000 said....
"Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 So they said to him: “Lord, always give us this bread.”....

....he said to them..."“I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”

He then said something that shocked them.....
“Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him."....

"Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."

Jesus had given his audience a spiritual application of something they only understood in a fleshly way.
The apostles came to understand the difference between a physical application and a spiritual application of Jesus' teachings because they always waited for an explanation....never stumbling because of a misinterpretation of what he said. We too have to evaluate what Jesus taught in context, not picking scripture out of context to give a false impression of what he taught.

Jesus was in every way 100% human, and he cared for his fleshly body as we all should, giving it nourishing food and uncontaminated water to drink. Circumcision of the flesh was a sign of the covenant between Abraham and Jehovah....but it came to have a spiritual application with regard to Gentiles. Jews could continue to be circumcised as sons of Abraham, but now the law was no longer binding on Christians.
Other things came to be added over time as Christendom was born and the corruption of the "weeds" continued to flourish and impart false teachings.

John:
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

Again, in plain English...."So the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.” 14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all. 16 And yet even if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me. 17 Also, in your own Law it is written: ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” 19 Then they said to him: “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered: “You know neither me nor my Father. If you did know me, you would know my Father also.” (John 8:13-19)

What was Jesus saying here? He was speaking to the Pharisees who clung to strict adherence to the law as a fleshly means to gain everlasting life. Jesus told them that they did not know the God they claimed to serve and therefore would never know the one whom he sent.

Jesus' earthly ministry was not for the purpose of judging the Jewish people at that time, although he did judge the religious leaders for their negligence in caring for God's flock. Their adherence to the law was selective as Jesus said...They 'strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!'

God had already judged them because he sent Jesus, not to the religious leaders, but to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The sheep were "lost" because the shepherds were too busy looking after their own interests to care for the ones who were struggling under the weight of their additions. Jesus went to these lost ones to offer refreshment and hope.

His final judgment was to come when he returned to finalize the reason for his sacrificial course.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9....
"This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.

6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength"

The gathering of the nations is a physical event, as is their judgment. (Matthew 25:31-32)

The body cannot be perfect. So why do you try? Sin is of the heart (spirit), not the body (flesh).

The body is already dead. We work with what's alive (quickens). The spirit.

We live in the flesh on a physical earth....humankind will always live in the flesh as this was the way God intended his human creation to live...forever. This earth was always meant to be our permanent home. Rebels derailed God's original purpose by abusing the gift of free will, prompting him to take remedial action, but all will return to the way it was meant to be in the end. (Isaiah 55:11)The Kingdom of God was the solution. Most "Christians" have no idea what the Kingdom is or what it will do for us and the earth.

We are created as physical beings and God provided all that was necessary in order to keep our minds and bodies healthy and active. The body was created perfect, but it was corrupted by sin. Sinful acts may originate if the heart because of that, but it is practiced by the body. What we practice matters.....otherwise the law was useless. We can control our actions, overriding the desires of the flesh.

 

[Axe Elf]

You don't tug on Superman's cape...
You don't spit on your liege...
You don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger...
And you don't try to debate _______.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

For a Christian to say "he's not following Christ" or "she's not acting Christ like" are themselves blind. For they do not know hearts, only flesh.

"For out of the hearts abundance, the mouth speaks."

People themselves reveal what is in their hearts, by their practices.

Not our occasional mistakes.... we're all inclined to err.... but making a practice of stealing, lying, etc., is not acceptable.

 

[Phantasman]

"Orthodoxy" is a strange concept IMO. What makes something "orthodox"?

Definition..."following or conforming to the traditional or generally accepted rules or beliefs of a religion, philosophy, or practice."

So we have orthodox religion...orthodox medicine.....orthodox concepts in science etc. But what makes something "generally accepted" by a majority of people?

I think we only have to look at the advertising industry to understand how it happens. Today, its called, "perception management" i.e. leading the masses to a conclusion that is pre-determined in order to control their thinking and behavior. This is done in many ways by politicians, big business, celebrity lifestyle and the mass media in general. Very few people understand how easily their perceptions can be swayed by a good spin.....it doesn't even have to be true, but make it sound convincing, and they will swallow it all....hook, line and sinker.

We are created to trust. That is why betrayal feels so wrong.



I agree...except of course in regard to the sanctity of blood.



We live in the flesh on a physical earth....humankind will always live in the flesh as this was the way God intended his human creation to live...forever. This earth was always meant to be our permanent home. Rebels derailed God's original purpose by abusing the gift of free will, prompting him to take remedial action, but all will return to the way it was meant to be in the end. (Isaiah 55:11)The Kingdom of God was the solution. Most "Christians" have no idea what the Kingdom is or what it will do for us and the earth.

We are created as physical beings and God provided all that was necessary in order to keep our minds and bodies healthy and active. The body was created perfect, but it was corrupted by sin. Sinful acts may originate if the heart because of that, but it is practiced by the body. What we practice matters.....otherwise the law was useless. We can control our actions, overriding the desires of the flesh.

You were doing real good, then you moved further away from me seeing the NWT (more from men) rather than going back before the seed of orthodox thought.

Blood, like flesh, profits nothing. You see blood as giving life, when it doesn't. The blood that Christ said to drink and shed for us is not red. You see physical, not spiritual. Which is what communion has been reduced to. Wafers and wine.

"Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. I find fault with the others who say that it will not rise. Then both of them are at fault. You say that the flesh will not rise. But tell me what will rise, that we may honor you. You say the Spirit in the flesh, and it is also this light in the flesh. (But) this too is a matter which is in the flesh, for whatever you shall say, you say nothing outside the flesh. It is necessary to rise in this flesh, since everything exists in it. In this world, those who put on garments are better than the garments. In the Kingdom of Heaven, the garments are better than those that put them on."- Gospel of Philip

Since the JW religion does not use all scriptures but only those of the orthodox (catholic), they are merely backing Gospel messages with preordained Hebrew scripture thought. The Spirit (Holy) spoke much after it was introduced. But the orthodox preferred the times before it came to those after it arrived.

Unless you drop the OT that was fulfilled (by Christ), you will continue to live (and see) the Gospel (word of God) as a seed and not the "plant" it grew into.

Luke:
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it."- Secret James

The Jews never had this knowledge. And the Priests, like the Pharisee's, discard it.

(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."- Gospel of Thomas

Colossians:
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Blood is merely physical tissue. The "blood of Christ" is the Holy Spirit, shed to men, that only he could do, since he was (the first) son of God (on Earth). The Spirit is the mother we need to make us "sons of God".

NOW, read this with (spiritual) understanding:

John:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The OT fathers did NOT see the true God. Has never heard his voice or seen his image. John 5:37

There was a reason for John being written as the 4th. The synoptics were being misinterpreted.

John and Paul align with the non canon books because they show the Gospel in a revealed way over the orthodox Bible. To me, this is Spirit led, not man (religious) led.

 

[Phantasman]

"For out of the hearts abundance, the mouth speaks."

People themselves reveal what is in their hearts, by their practices.

Not our occasional mistakes.... we're all inclined to err.... but making a practice of stealing, lying, etc., is not acceptable.

Stealing and lying hurts others, through the ignorance of love for them. The two commandments from Christ of love covers the will of the Father. Love. Where does God say to love your flesh (self)? You see as the Pharisee's (who saw Jesus). Even an non believers do good works constantly, and show their hearts to be good. They have good practices as well. Do you follow them? Judge them accordingly?

What have I posted that would offend you on that list? Gluttony? One who drinks alcohol? A smoker? A sky diver?

What do these things have that judges how one loves another? To judge that a Christian "acts" this way or that is judging by the flesh. To say a Christian (following Christ) doesn't do such things is a preconceived judgement of the individual. How do you know how the Spirit is dealing with this individual? How they are given grace from the Father who understands their heart over you that merely judges the outside?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

For starters the whole Noah story arc. If not taken literally what twisted message is it trying to convey? If you take it literally there is substantial evidence against it. For instance, if all mammals are descendants from who was on the ark, we would all be horribly inbred. I can concede that the Adam and Eve stories are mythological in nature and not to be taken literally but the Noah story seems too intricate (measurements are given for how big Noah's ship should be for instance) to be dismissed as a parable/fable to teach a lesson.

I had some JW friends growing up that had some practices that didn't make sense to me. The first is their stance against blood transfusions which they support with a verse that says you shouldn't spill your brothers blood (which is clearly a rule against violence) and another that says you should not consume blood (as part of pagan rituals). Since blood transfusions were not a thing in the bronze age, I think its obvious that these verses are being tortuously twisted to support their no transfusion stance. Another is their belief to not celebrate ANYTHING other then Christ's death. This one is supported by a verse where Jesus said not to celebrate his birth but to celebrate his death since that is how we are saved. He never said to celebrate nothing but his death! In fact, didn't Jesus turn water to wine at a wedding celebration?! Before you say it, I am familiar with the JW's belief that wine back in the day was more like a grape beverage than an alcoholic one, and I don't agree with that at all. The bible makes numerous references to getting drunk on wine, so not buying it.

I'm starting this thread so as not to derail another in response to some things @Deeje asked me.

If any of you have any bible verses/claims and/or interpretations of them that don't make sense to you that you would like to discuss/debate, feel free to share.

My favorite part of Noah's story is when he became an alcoholic. Do you think he became one because he couldn't save everyone or was the Wine just that good.

 

[Axe Elf]

My favorite part of Noah's story is when he became an alcoholic. Do you think he became one because he couldn't save everyone or was the Wine just that good.

You have time to try a lot of things in 950 years.