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Bible -- Figurative or Literal?

cmh0114

New Member
After having read large chunks of the Bible and conversing about it with my pastor, I've come to the conclusion that many Christians say that the Bible is "figurative" whenever they find a story that just sounds stupid when taken literally, or when they don't have a good literal answer.

My question is this - if God inspired the Bible, why isn't there a clear story? Why must the Bible be taken literally in some cases but figuratively in others? Or do you believe that the Bible is completely literal/ completely figurative?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
After having read large chunks of the Bible and conversing about it with my pastor, I've come to the conclusion that many Christians say that the Bible is "figurative" whenever they find a story that just sounds stupid when taken literally, or when they don't have a good literal answer.

My question is this - if God inspired the Bible, why isn't there a clear story? Why must the Bible be taken literally in some cases but figuratively in others? Or do you believe that the Bible is completely literal/ completely figurative?

Well, I certainly can't speak for Christians, or the Christian Bible. But in Jewish tradition, we have always held that scripture is infinitely complex, having limitless layers of potential meaning within it. In part, we have taught that this is because the Torah is a gift of God to the Jewish people, and like its maker, it cannot be limited by what one might presume are its visible parameters. In part, we believe that this is because Torah (in its widest sense of both the Written Torah-- that which Christians believe is the entirety of the "Old Testament"-- and the Oral Torah-- the continuing superstructure of interpretation and exegesis that was also "given" with the Written Torah, creating an interpretive tradition that continues to grow and evolve to this day) is designed to be eternal, always yielding new meanings and levels of insight. And in order to do that, it must be tremendously complex and nuanced.

The Biblical authors used every literary tool available to them, not just history, theology, and narrative. They used poetry, imagery, allegory, metaphor, puns, wordplays, idioms, allusions both internal and external, and many other devices also, to create something that is not simple. It is a fusion, containing many things.

The Hebrew Bible is a collection of many texts written by many authors over the course of around a thousand years. It is a history of the Jewish People couched in mythic structuring designed to impart philosophical lessons. It is an account of the relationship between the Jews and God, depcited large on mythopoeic character narratives and larger than life story arcs. It represents a record of the evolution of Israelite Jewish religious thought, theology, ritual practice, law, and social doctrine for a millennium or more. And it includes wisdom literature, homiletical material, and poetry of virtually every genre known in the Ancient Near East. And it was written to survive the ages, offering new and continuing wisdom over time, by a people who are known for complex thought and detailed art, in a language that is one of the most nuanced and complexly elegant languages in the Western World.

If people are telling you it ought to be easy, or it ought to be all one way or another, or it ought to be clear and plain and simple to understand (whether they mean to take it all literally or reckon it all fiction)...then they're leading you down the garden path.

It's hard. It's supposed to be hard. And it's complex because it's supposed to be. It's about people wrestling with God and God's desires from us, and how to try and live a better life in a very difficult world. Nothing in there should be simple, because neither God nor the world are easy and simple. And if you crack open a book expecting pat answers, you learn nothing about the world, yourself, or God. You start learning when you crack open a book expecting to find questions to struggle with.
 

blue8

Member
If people are telling you it ought to be easy, or it ought to be all one way or another, or it ought to be clear and plain and simple to understand (whether they mean to take it all literally or reckon it all fiction)...then they're leading you down the garden path.

It's hard. It's supposed to be hard. And it's complex because it's supposed to be. It's about people wrestling with God and God's desires from us, and how to try and live a better life in a very difficult world. Nothing in there should be simple, because neither God nor the world are easy and simple. And if you crack open a book expecting pat answers, you learn nothing about the world, yourself, or God. You start learning when you crack open a book expecting to find questions to struggle with.

Great answer, it´s really a pleasure to read your posts.
icon14.gif
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
At that time, as Jesus said, many couldn't understand things well; so messages were conveyed via parables as well as spiritual metaphor.

Now humanity is more advanced, and more modern scripture is far more clear and direct in its messages!

While there are some parts of the Bible that are literal (or that require only a simple transformation to become literal), there are many parts which are indeed symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally.

Indeed, it is in fact a trivial exercise to demonstrate for anyone who insists on taking the Bible literally that ridiculous results can easily be produced thereby! I've done this myself.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I can't see how it can be taken literally and make any sense,its even more apparent in the New Testament and the Qur'an and the invention of the stick ie Satan/Hell to promote the Carrot Heaven/Paradise.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Well, I certainly can't speak for Christians, or the Christian Bible. But in Jewish tradition, we have always held that scripture is infinitely complex, having limitless layers of potential meaning within it. In part, we have taught that this is because the Torah is a gift of God to the Jewish people, and like its maker, it cannot be limited by what one might presume are its visible parameters. In part, we believe that this is because Torah (in its widest sense of both the Written Torah-- that which Christians believe is the entirety of the "Old Testament"-- and the Oral Torah-- the continuing superstructure of interpretation and exegesis that was also "given" with the Written Torah, creating an interpretive tradition that continues to grow and evolve to this day) is designed to be eternal, always yielding new meanings and levels of insight. And in order to do that, it must be tremendously complex and nuanced.

The Biblical authors used every literary tool available to them, not just history, theology, and narrative. They used poetry, imagery, allegory, metaphor, puns, wordplays, idioms, allusions both internal and external, and many other devices also, to create something that is not simple. It is a fusion, containing many things.

The Hebrew Bible is a collection of many texts written by many authors over the course of around a thousand years. It is a history of the Jewish People couched in mythic structuring designed to impart philosophical lessons. It is an account of the relationship between the Jews and God, depcited large on mythopoeic character narratives and larger than life story arcs. It represents a record of the evolution of Israelite Jewish religious thought, theology, ritual practice, law, and social doctrine for a millennium or more. And it includes wisdom literature, homiletical material, and poetry of virtually every genre known in the Ancient Near East. And it was written to survive the ages, offering new and continuing wisdom over time, by a people who are known for complex thought and detailed art, in a language that is one of the most nuanced and complexly elegant languages in the Western World.

If people are telling you it ought to be easy, or it ought to be all one way or another, or it ought to be clear and plain and simple to understand (whether they mean to take it all literally or reckon it all fiction)...then they're leading you down the garden path.

It's hard. It's supposed to be hard. And it's complex because it's supposed to be. It's about people wrestling with God and God's desires from us, and how to try and live a better life in a very difficult world. Nothing in there should be simple, because neither God nor the world are easy and simple. And if you crack open a book expecting pat answers, you learn nothing about the world, yourself, or God. You start learning when you crack open a book expecting to find questions to struggle with.

One of your best answers yet.

Thanks

I would suggest what you say applies equally to the new testament.
I think you can get far more from it if you treat it as an open ended resource,
that can be applied in new ways to almost anything.

Very simple questions that come to my mind, like "where is God" can lead to almost endless avenues of thought and even more reading.
My most recent thoughts concern what is the "effect" of Baptism... I am a long way short of the end of that chain of thought. The further you look the less sure you become on that one. ( it seems none of the Churches quite agree either.)
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It's hard. It's supposed to be hard. And it's complex because it's supposed to be.

wrong, its hard because its ancient writing by a people who had little knowledge of anything. Its confusing because the people who wrote it were extremely confused.

it doesnt take any brains to see this.


The Hebrew Bible is a collection of many texts written by many authors over the course of around a thousand years.

lets set the record striaght. Mostly unknown authors written down by not one eyewitness! after being told around campfires for hundreds of years. Many of the fables come from previous religions in that exact area, sumerian and egyptian cultures heavily influenced the the oral fables which compromise the OT.

It's about people wrestling with God and God's desires from us,

that is only your personal opinion

you know dang well the ancient hebrews wrote most of the bible as allegorical fables that are not historically accurate or true.

it is my opinion ancient hebrews created your god and the fables grew over a 1500 year period into the bible we have today. you can see many aspects that evolved in the bible itself during tis 1500 year adventure. Knowing real history there is no dought it is not the word of god in any sense unless you believe your god is as dumb as dirt and purposely told his people the wrong or no information on purpose.

If there is a god he didnt educate the people with any decent knowledge.

the OT is a direct reflection of not a god but a ancient race of hebrews that knew little of the world around them. remmember ancient hebrews worshipped more then one god, if the others are made up, why could they not make up another god like they made up many of the fables in the book????????

all my opinion
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I can't see how it can be taken literally and make any sense,its even more apparent in the New Testament and the Qur'an and the invention of the stick ie Satan/Hell to promote the Carrot Heaven/Paradise.

exactly.

you know its fiction because you can see hell evolve slowly over hundreds of years.

from grave or dirt pit to a fiery red devil and pitchfork LOL :facepalm: and the likes of purgatory ect ect ect
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
To me the Bible has no relevance to us in the modern world unless one takes it metaphorically. Think about it. Do talking snakes and donkeys make any sense taken literally? Even if they did, do they mean anything to us? Can these things alone, assuming they are literal, make us any better or worse?

When read metaphorically the Bible is full of parable and good lessons that can change lives.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
talking snakes and donkeys
You mean, they don't exist? :sad4:

:D



@OP

There's little I could say here that has not already been said.

Take it as fable: even the historical aspects have mythical aspects in it except for one passage in the Bible which is history.

We aren't here because of a talking snake with legs who convinced a woman built from the rib of a man to eat an apple that was placed in a garden built by an omniscient creator deity who were then punished with leglessness for the snake, childbirth for women, and needing to work the land for men, we know such things as not historical. We can however, take ideas behind 'why' behind them. I'll leave finding meaning behind the myths to those who read the scripture regularly.

There isn't much I take from the Bible though, I have little need for it to spiritually fulfil me as I have plenty of scripture to read as it is that I feel does a far better job--but for some, it speaks to them.

My two cents. :)
 

outhouse

Atheistically
despite its fiction it can be a great guide for help in tough times for the ectremely poor [poverty] the sick and dieing.

sometimes fanatasy is a useful tool
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Well I don't know why people are so hesitant to admit a lot in it is myth. They have no problem calling the myths of the Egyptians, Greeks, etc. what they are, myths. The Jews were an ancient people, and just like any other, they wrote myths. Myths were the ancient way of telling parables and spiritual truths.
 

Danmac

Well-Known Member
After having read large chunks of the Bible and conversing about it with my pastor, I've come to the conclusion that many Christians say that the Bible is "figurative" whenever they find a story that just sounds stupid when taken literally, or when they don't have a good literal answer.

My question is this - if God inspired the Bible, why isn't there a clear story? Why must the Bible be taken literally in some cases but figuratively in others? Or do you believe that the Bible is completely literal/ completely figurative?

The bible is figurative, even in literal passages. It is a riddle
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Well I don't know why people are so hesitant to admit a lot in it is myth. They have no problem calling the myths of the Egyptians, Greeks, etc. what they are, myths. The Jews were an ancient people, and just like any other, they wrote myths. Myths were the ancient way of telling parables and spiritual truths.

This is a fault of the Abrahmics,really all religions have as much credence as another from the Aboriginal dream time to Wicca.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
This is a fault of the Abrahmics,really all religions have as much credence as another from the Aboriginal dream time to Wicca.

To me religions aren't necessarily about truth. If you're practicing religion to gain some kind of "absolute truth" you're going to be disappointed.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
To me religions aren't necessarily about truth. If you're practicing religion to gain some kind of "absolute truth" you're going to be disappointed.

I agree,you could spend your whole life in pursuit of an absolute truth from relgious texts and get zilch,however people with faith in times of adversity can get some comfort from it and i wouldn't begrudge anyone that.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I don't think it really matters to believers one way or the other whether it's historical or fictional. I think that most religious belief isn't even examined or analyzed beyond a mere, vague acceptance.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I don't think it really matters to believers one way or the other whether it's historical or fictional. I think that most religious belief isn't even examined or analyzed beyond a mere, vague acceptance.

I don't think it can be analyzed too closely with any kind of rationale,for most religious people their religion is something they inherited so they also inherit their parents belief IMO.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Some of it can certainly be taken figuratively. Jesus spoke in Parables and so we can assume that the Prophets did, too.
 
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