Bible only?

[sandandfoam]

I see the bible quoted a lot (naturally I suppose) to back up this or that Christian point of view. I consider myself a Christian but would admit that my bible knowledge is very poor. I wish to improve my Bible knowledge but still I feel that we can find Christ if we look inside and listen to others (clergy, other authors etc.)just as effectively as by looking at the bible?

 

[sojourner]

What the Church has to say about the Bible and about spiritual matters is just as important as what the Bible says.

 

[Francine]

What the Church has to say about the Bible and about spiritual matters is just as important as what the Bible says.

No, what the Bible says is far more important that what anybody says ABOUT the Bible. The Bible has the words of eternal life. Opinions about the bible and sixty cents will get you a donut. But you are half right. What the Church has to say about spiritual matters comes to her from the Apostles.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I feel that we can find Christ if we look inside and listen to others (clergy, other authors etc.)just as effectively as by looking at the bible?

Depends on if the "outside source" knows what they are talking about.

 

[sandandfoam]

Depends on if the "outside source" knows what they are talking about.

True, but couldn't one apply that line of thinking all the way back to the original authors ?
I can trust the church but not blindly. That's why I think one needs to look inside too.

 

[Te Deum]

I would like to state, in response to some of the posts here, that Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture (Bible) do remain on the same level of authority. This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age". . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit." "And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching."

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical, or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's magisterium.

I would also like to point out two verses from the Bible that even illustrate that the "Bible Alone" (Sola-Scriptura) is not a biblical idea.

1. "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours" (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

2. "But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:14-17).

Some will quote the above verses as if they support the idea of "Bible Alone". However, first and foremost, these verses never say that we are saved by the sacred scriptures alone. And most importantly, these verses do not refer to the Bible! When St. Paul wrote this, the Bible had not yet been put together; the Bible was not compiled under after the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. St. Paul was referring to the Old Testament being useful for teaching.

 

[sojourner]

No, what the Bible says is far more important that what anybody says ABOUT the Bible. The Bible has the words of eternal life. Opinions about the bible and sixty cents will get you a donut. But you are half right. What the Church has to say about spiritual matters comes to her from the Apostles.

What does the Bible say? We need the scholarship about the Bible, in order to understand more fully just what it says. That is as important as what the Bible, itself says, since, without it, we cannot know just what the Bible says.

 

[Starfish]

You need more than the Bible and more than the advice and counsel of religious clergy, though both are highly valuable. You need to know what God wants. You need to hear from Him.

Try asking God. Try prayer and really talk to God in your own words. Ask Him what you are seeking. Your answer will come, though probably not immediately. So be patient and keep your mind open to recognize his answer and quidance when it comes. Also keep asking others and reading the Bible, but most important are your prayers that you will recognize truth when you hear it.

 

[sandandfoam]

Thanks for the answers.
I've been thinking a lot about this for the last couple of weeks and while I'm sure my thoughts will continue to evolve the fog has lifted enough for me to see at least an outline of where I'm at now. The idea of Thomas Aquinas that one cannot know and believe a thing at the same time captures perfectly a hazy notion I've had about desiring understanding rather than belief. The clarity of expression provided by Thomas Aquinas has been something of a catalyst.
On reflection I realized that I know God. Not an anthropomorphic God but God that is in the stillness and in the wildness of creation. Eriugena was right to regard the world as theophany. To know God all we have to do is look at creation. Pelagius too was right - creation is good, humanity is intrinsically good and redemption is not about becoming someone we're not but about becoming truly ourselves.
I've also been harbouring notions about not taking the Bible literally while at the same time wanting to acknowledge that there is a good message in there. Then I read Gully and Mulholland "if in our examination of every chapter and verse of scripture we miss the primacy of love, we strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, we are not 'loving God with all our mind' when we refuse to do the necessary work of weighing scripture in the scales of Grace." Excellent.
Combine that with Pealgius' statement that "scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe that matters, it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters it is becoming like Him."
And it all fell into place.
Knowing God is "about holding a stillness of perspective in the midst of busyness...being alert to the light of the sun...about tasting the goodness of God in the fruit of the earth and the love of God on the lips of another. It is about knowing...that in all things we are surrounded by eternity."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Depends on if the "outside source" knows what they are talking about.

Or just agrees with you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

What does the Bible say? We need the scholarship about the Bible, in order to understand more fully just what it says. That is as important as what the Bible, itself says, since, without it, we cannot know just what the Bible says.

My pastor once said it's amazing how the Bible sheds a lot of light on those commentaries. I find I'm better off just reading the Bible for myself. There are too many wrong or twisted viewpoints out there and sifting through them is pointless.

 

[lunamoth]

Thanks for the answers.
I've been thinking a lot about this for the last couple of weeks and while I'm sure my thoughts will continue to evolve the fog has lifted enough for me to see at least an outline of where I'm at now. The idea of Thomas Aquinas that one cannot know and believe a thing at the same time captures perfectly a hazy notion I've had about desiring understanding rather than belief. The clarity of expression provided by Thomas Aquinas has been something of a catalyst.
On reflection I realized that I know God. Not an anthropomorphic God but God that is in the stillness and in the wildness of creation. Eriugena was right to regard the world as theophany. To know God all we have to do is look at creation. Pelagius too was right - creation is good, humanity is intrinsically good and redemption is not about becoming someone we're not but about becoming truly ourselves.
I've also been harbouring notions about not taking the Bible literally while at the same time wanting to acknowledge that there is a good message in there. Then I read Gully and Mulholland "if in our examination of every chapter and verse of scripture we miss the primacy of love, we strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, we are not 'loving God with all our mind' when we refuse to do the necessary work of weighing scripture in the scales of Grace." Excellent.
Combine that with Pealgius' statement that "scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe that matters, it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters it is becoming like Him."
And it all fell into place.
Knowing God is "about holding a stillness of perspective in the midst of busyness...being alert to the light of the sun...about tasting the goodness of God in the fruit of the earth and the love of God on the lips of another. It is about knowing...that in all things we are surrounded by eternity."

Nice post stephen. :yes:

The System *curse you System* will not let me give you frubals.

 

[Te Deum]

Combine that with Pealgius' statement that "scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe that matters, it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters it is becoming like Him."

Pope Innocent III: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Pope Boniface VIII: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Pope Eugene IV: "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Please exercise caution and frequently pray. Pelagius was a heretic and, as such, should not be praised or cited as a worthy instructor of Theology or Spirituality.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pelagius and Pelagianism

 

[sandandfoam]

Pope Innocent III: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Pope Boniface VIII: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Pope Eugene IV: "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Please exercise caution and frequently pray. Pelagius was a heretic and, as such, should not be praised or cited as a worthy instructor of Theology or Spirituality.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pelagius and Pelagianism

I am surrounded by Catholicism. It almost turned me off God for good. There are very few opinions that I am completely disinterested in but those of Popes past and present qualify.
I have respect for individual Catholics and their beliefs. Not so for the institution of the RC Church.

 

[Francine]

I have respect for individual Catholics and their beliefs. Not so for the institution of the RC Church.

Do you at least enjoy RC Cola?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Amazing... here we are talking about understanding scriptures and NOT ONE PERSON even mentions the Holy Spirit: our COUNSELOR. The church is our support group for sure. However the Spirit has been given the task of helping us to understand.

I Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

It's the SPIRIT that changes your heart! Not the church. Not the Preacher. Not the Deacon. Not the Bishop. It's the SPIRIT that allows the eyes of your heart to be OPEN.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. NIV

Now you can follow MAN if you want, with all of his traditions and extraneous rules. I choose to follow the Spirit of Christ that was given me when I was baptized.

 

[tomspug]

I see the bible quoted a lot (naturally I suppose) to back up this or that Christian point of view. I consider myself a Christian but would admit that my bible knowledge is very poor. I wish to improve my Bible knowledge but still I feel that we can find Christ if we look inside and listen to others (clergy, other authors etc.)just as effectively as by looking at the bible?

ABSOLUTELY! What the Bible SAYS is gobbly-gook if you don't understand it or can't apply it to real life. In fact, the Bible doesn't really make sense until you've actually had a significant amount of life experiences.

Just don't be surprised when you're looking through the Bible and find an answer to a question that's been bugging you. It happens a lot.