Blaspheming The Holy Spirit!

[Cardboard]

How? Like I said, How does knowing the outcome cause the outcome?

I know the sun is going to rise tomorrow, Does that mean I cause the sun to rise?

I don't understand your logic. Please explain.

om·ni·scient

: knowing everything : having unlimited understanding or knowledge



If God is omniscient then even before our physical existence into this universe, God would have total and complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make, Correct?

Given that, it stands to reason that any and all choices we make are then predetermined at this very point of creation.
So if our choices are then predetermined by the creator, then that must negate the possibility of “Free Will”
By this, if human “free will” were to be valid, that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined, then God cannot, by its very definition, be omniscient.

 

[Father Heathen]

What I realize is that our belief says we are made in His image, which I believe includes everything that goes with it including the emotional wiring and circuits and chemicals (I believe he has a body unlike post 15th century Rabbinicism, as the text seems to implicitly state),

What need or use would he have with a body? Sounds more like a lesser deity such as Zeus or Thor rather than an actual supreme being.

and what I realize is that the entire religion of Judaism is based on such anthropomorphicized interpretations, and that there's nothing in the concept of "Infinity" that places limits on emotional expression. And the c oncept of "perfect" is totally relative. I can argue that one who simply lets such indignation pass is imperfect. A weakling.

If a young child came up to you and called you a "poo poo head", would the appropriate approach be to kick them in the teeth, douse them with gasoline, and then set them ablaze for hurting your feelings or bruising your ego?

I could just as easily argue that saying he's beyond such things as honor and emotion and justified indigination is just another attempt to put him in a box.

That wouldn't make sense, but if you say so.

 

[Thana]

om·ni·scient

: knowing everything : having unlimited understanding or knowledge



If God is omniscient then even before our physical existence into this universe, God would have total and complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make, Correct?

Given that, it stands to reason that any and all choices we make are then predetermined at this very point of creation.
So if our choices are then predetermined by the creator, then that must negate the possibility of “Free Will”
By this, if human “free will” were to be valid, that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined, then God cannot, by its very definition, be omniscient.

Okay I see what you're saying, But it still doesn't mean my will is not my own. Just because he knows what I'm going to do doesn't mean he dictated it.

He put me here, And everything else from there on is a matter of circumstances and choices.

If we didn't have free will, What would be the point in us living, Since God can already know our choices and therefore judge us without us ever even having to be born or live or die.

Life would be moot.

 

[Cardboard]

Okay I see what you're saying, But it still doesn't mean my will is not my own. Just because he knows what I'm going to do doesn't mean he dictated it..

But that is exactly what it means! he doesnt just know it, he knew it before the begining of time, Yes he dictated it!

If we didn't have free will, What would be the point in us living, Since God can already know our choices and therefore judge us without us ever even having to be born or live or die.

Life would be moot.

There it is , you can not have both, or you can just say as i do....... I dont know

But, now there are some clever ways that I have seen people get around this paradox.
One, God is outside and above the constraints of linier time, thus past present and future are all present to god. (Still not sure how that is supposed to answer the paradox but I have hear it used)
Or two, God has the ability to forget, thus during the cycle of our time, no choice is know, I like this one, my daughter came up with it.
Now there are many more in apologetics circles out there, but none of them actually seem to work without forgoing logic, but hey, it’s not really about logic, is it

 

[Thana]

But that is exactly what it means! he doesnt just know it, he knew it before the begining of time, Yes he dictated it!


There it is , you can not have both, or you can just say as i do....... I dont know

But, now there are some clever ways that I have seen people get around this paradox.
One, God is outside and above the constraints of linier time, thus past present and future are all present to god. (Still not sure how that is supposed to answer the paradox but I have hear it used)
Or two, God has the ability to forget, thus during the cycle of our time, no choice is know, I like this one, my daughter came up with it.
Now there are many more in apologetics circles out there, but none of them actually seem to work without forgoing logic, but hey, it’s not really about logic, is it

Not when you use human logic to determine the logic of God, Considering, His logic is far beyond our comprehension..

My point was, If God didn't give us free will, We wouldn't be here right now.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If god is beyond the capacity for (human) logic to examine, how is it possible to reliably assert that this alleged condition inhibits the (human) capacity to logically examine god? This fundamentally relies on a (human) logical process - which you have just asserted is unreliable in this context.

Not only that, lets pretend for a moment that god cannot be characterized logically (unconstrained by logic), that would mean it is not possible to use logic to reliably support or reject ANY argument.

"God is all powerful therefore God can do X" - this is not a reliable argument because it uses logic (which you have just asserted is unreliable); indeed the sentence I wrote pointing out its unreliability also uses logic in a context where logic is unreliable, so it too is unreliable - as is this sentence. These layers of argument compound the capacity for error making the discussion of such an entity to which logic cannot reliably be applied an exercise that is intrinsically unreliable and thus is of diminishing relevance.

 

[Cardboard]

"God is all powerful therefore God can do X" - this is not a reliable argument because it uses logic (which you have just asserted is unreliable); indeed the sentence I wrote pointing out its unreliability also uses logic in a context where logic is unreliable, so it too is unreliable - as is this sentence. These layers of argument compound the capacity for error making the discussion of such an entity to which logic cannot reliably be applied an exercise that is intrinsically unreliable and thus is of diminishing relevance.

You are right; your reply on the illogical nature of applying logic to an illogical entity was completely irrelevant .

No you are very correct in that aspect, But that does not negate though, the necessity for trying to utilize the only tool that we have to understand a thing, and its just fun to think about, at least to me it is.

 

[Cardboard]

Not when you use human logic to determine the logic of God, Considering, His logic is far beyond our comprehension..

My point was, If God didn't give us free will, We wouldn't be here right now.

That does bring up another point, why would a god , who loves us and wants to be close to us, whats us to know "him" make that being unable to fully understand "him" ? Faith? still doesnt sound right to me.

 

[Thana]

That does bring up another point, why would a god , who loves us and wants to be close to us, whats us to know "him" make that being unable to fully understand "him" ? Faith? still doesnt sound right to me.

If we could comprehend God, Then I don't see why we wouldn't also believe in Him.
If our logic were equal to his, Then we'd be to smart to sin, And to smart to dismiss God. Instead we have just enough I suppose to be able to make choices.

 

[Cardboard]

If we could comprehend God, Then I don't see why we wouldn't also believe in Him.
If our logic were equal to his, Then we'd be to smart to sin, And to smart to dismiss God. Instead we have just enough I suppose to be able to make choices.

Well, not too bad, I used to teach a varriation of that idea in Sunday school, that we were created and designed specifically in line to gods universal purpose, our intellect exactly as much as we needed ,to understand only what god wanted and have to take the rest by faith, that being the challenge. Thant may be the case, unlikely to me, but could be

 

[Thana]

Well, not too bad, I used to teach a varriation of that idea in Sunday school, that we were created and designed specifically in line to gods universal purpose, our intellect exactly as much as we needed ,to understand only what god wanted and have to take the rest by faith, that being the challenge. Thant may be the case, unlikely to me, but could be

Fair enough

 

[InformedIgnorance]

You are right; your reply on the illogical nature of applying logic to an illogical entity was completely irrelevant .

No you are very correct in that aspect, But that does not negate though, the necessity for trying to utilize the only tool that we have to understand a thing, and its just fun to think about, at least to me it is.

Oh absolutely; indeed it is the only tool we really MUST use, since it is fundamental to rational thought and thus we cannot have a meaningful discussion without reliance on logic; I was merely pointing out the implication of the assertion.

 

[Shermana]

What need or use would he have with a body? Sounds more like a lesser deity such as Zeus or Thor rather than an actual supreme being.

What use do Angels have for a body? I don't see why a "lesser deity" can have one but a "Supreme being" doesn't. You are placing all kinds of abstracts on an abstract concept.

If a young child came up to you and called you a "poo poo head", would the appropriate approach be to kick them in the teeth, douse them with gasoline, and then set them ablaze for hurting your feelings or bruising your ego?

Absolutely not. Children are given much leniency. (And for the record, the word "Youths" in 2 Kings regarding Elisha's bears is falsely rendered as "young children" when it should be "young adults" for grammatical reasons I'll be happy to get into, such as that it always references them as "children" with textual context when it's not referring to older ones).

However, if I was the King of an Empire in Ancient Antiquity and some guy called me a "****-head", I'd be required by protocol to end him. To not do so would make me look weak and sniveling.

That wouldn't make sense, but if you say so.

I can say the same about your own view. I don't see how it doesn't make sense.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

So, about blaspheming, swearing and all that...

There are more than enough words in the English Language to get one's message across without having to resort to doing that.

If the words are chosen carefully, they can also insult/hurt more than taking God's name in vain or using a term relating to fornication or a person's genitalia.

These are base insults only. They are used by those lacking imagination of adequate wordpower to express their emotions. It shows poor upbringing and poor breeding.

This is why such terms are an 'insult to God' in that people tend to use such expressions only because they can and not for any other reason than that. Swearing is a bad habit.

I used to swear a lot, until I realised I would be taken more seriously as a person and a spiritual person if I did not. Please consider.

 

[Thana]

So, about blaspheming, swearing and all that...

There are more than enough words in the English Language to get one's message across without having to resort to doing that.

If the words are chosen carefully, they can also insult/hurt more than taking God's name in vain or using a term relating to fornication or a person's genitalia.

These are base insults only. They are used by those lacking imagination of adequate wordpower to express their emotions. It shows poor upbringing and poor breeding.

This is why such terms are an 'insult to God' in that people tend to use such expressions only because they can and not for any other reason than that. Swearing is a bad habit.

I used to swear a lot, until I realised I would be taken more seriously as a person and a spiritual person if I did not. Please consider.

Oh I don't know, Sometimes a good f word really puts in some emphasis when you're talking.

Though constant swearing can be a bit too much, And I agree that it can become ugly, annoying and can seem derelict.

 

[Cardboard]

Oh I don't know, Sometimes a good f word really puts in some emphasis when you're talking.

What about throat punching? how do you feel about that ?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What about throat punching? how do you feel about that ?

Only when the other guy truly deserves it. We shouldn't throat-punch willy nilly. (Hope this doesn't make me sound like some kind of holier-than-thou moralist. I'm just saying.)

 

[Shermana]

Only when the other guy truly deserves it. We shouldn't throat-punch willy nilly. (Hope this doesn't make me sound like some kind of holier-than-thou moralist. I'm just saying.)

I wish I could throat punch when people deserve it, there's probably more people than ever before who deserve a throat-punch, but those darn pesky laws get in the way. With that said, we should still restrain our language nonetheless, just like we must restrain our urges to throat-punch. Because it is often the people who use such language who deserve it.

 

[Thana]

Only when the other guy truly deserves it. We shouldn't throat-punch willy nilly. (Hope this doesn't make me sound like some kind of holier-than-thou moralist. I'm just saying.)

I am not ashamed of my throat punching ability

 

[McBell]

So, about blaspheming, swearing and all that...

There are more than enough words in the English Language to get one's message across without having to resort to doing that.

If the words are chosen carefully, they can also insult/hurt more than taking God's name in vain or using a term relating to fornication or a person's genitalia.

These are base insults only. They are used by those lacking imagination of adequate wordpower to express their emotions. It shows poor upbringing and poor breeding.

This is why such terms are an 'insult to God' in that people tend to use such expressions only because they can and not for any other reason than that. Swearing is a bad habit.

I used to swear a lot, until I realised I would be taken more seriously as a person and a spiritual person if I did not. Please consider.

Define "swearing".

The reason i request it is because, IMO, there is a big difference between swearing and cussing.
though admittedly oft times they go hand in hand.

To be completely honest, I never did understand why people get so "offended" by the use of certain words but do not get "offended" when the exact same context, sentiment, intention, meaning is applied to another word that is not on their "offensive word list".

I drop a hammer on my toe and say shoot and that is just fine.
But why is it when i drop a hammer on my toe and say ****, some people really freak out?

the ONLY difference between the two in that particular case is the word used.
They both mean the exact same thing (in context), so why the drama over the word **** and not over the word shoot?