Blessed are the poor in spirit...

[Civil Shephard]

... for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'd like to go one beatitude at a time and ask.

Rather you believe in Christ or not... what does this beatitude mean to you and how have you applied it in your life?

(Please also... I'm not looking for argument here. If you're Christian please don't bite into any taunts.)

(Also please note that when I write on this I will be quick referencing other parts of the Sermon on the Mount so if you're not familiar with Matthew 5 6 and 7 please do read the Sermon.)

To me...

I once read in a commentary I think that the poor in spirit are those who totally rely on God for all of their needs. And I feel the spirit of the first beatitude is something so powerful that it gets missed. I first understood it as akin to AA's first step. Having grown up in AA meetings with my mother I was very familiar with step 1's interpretation of the admission of powerlessness. I found that letting go and letting God was something that could save me from making an issue worse by trying to handle things myself. Aside of course from natural human obligations like work and personal maintenance.

So... I think now I feel that the most important aspect of this first beatitude is to remain poor in my opinion of myself, my words and my deeds. Who am I and who is God so to speak? I mean... it helps me throw myself into a selflessness I really don't think I can posses for more than moments at a time. It also shows on the smiles and in the eyes of satisfied friends and acquaintances who seem to be seeing my good works and giving glory to Father in Heaven and not me.

The poor in spirit to me are those who have given up allowing pride to control feelings and have given themselves over to a more mournful and merciful standard of judgment. I think mostly the poor in spirit are those who realize that casting pearls before swine is a cross to bear as much as it is something to be avoided when you're able too.

And lastly... the Kingdom of Heaven is a reward of internal peace in the face of adversity and sometimes even in times of refreshing when all those things added unto us are truly received with gratitude and humility. It is the joy of doing the right thing for the right reasons and letting your heart skip a beat as you see that joy overflow onto someone else.

So again I ask...

Rather you believe in Christ or not... what does this beatitude mean to you and how have you applied it in your life?

 

[dmgdnooc]

OK, I take the phrase 'poor in spirit' to relate to humility.
In this understanding the 'in spirit' of the phrase refers to the human spirit which tends to rise up and manifest itself as the pride of life.
So, a person 'poor' in so far as their human spirit is concerned has a paupered pride, is therefore humble.
　
In my life I seek to put down my natural pride in the gifts I have received and the manner in which I have used them to achieve this or that.
And, truth be known, I have much to be humble about.
　
There is a sense in which the 'poor in spirit' are, already present, in the Kingdom of God.
I think that truth lies in the fact that they are already fitted, by their present actions and attitude of mind, to dwell therein.

 

[blackout]

What is poor.

Not having enough resources to live by?
Not having the resources to take care of yourSelf,
or the people you love?

eh

or maybe
not having "stuff".
Having nothing.

Poor in spirit?

double eh.

The analogy really doesn't speak to me at all.

I could only stretch it to maybe mean,
"Being Observer",
and realizing the rest
is all how you create yourSelf.

But then,
I am no christian.
Lack does not appeal to me.
Neither does poverty.

EDIT: sorry. just noticed the DIR.
I'll remove the post if you prefer.
Still, perhaps it raises some good questions?
Maybe not.

 

[Civil Shephard]

OK, I take the phrase 'poor in spirit' to relate to humility.
In this understanding the 'in spirit' of the phrase refers to the human spirit which tends to rise up and manifest itself as the pride of life.
So, a person 'poor' in so far as their human spirit is concerned has a paupered pride, is therefore humble.
　
In my life I seek to put down my natural pride in the gifts I have received and the manner in which I have used them to achieve this or that.
And, truth be known, I have much to be humble about.
　
There is a sense in which the 'poor in spirit' are, already present, in the Kingdom of God.
I think that truth lies in the fact that they are already fitted, by their present actions and attitude of mind, to dwell therein.

Thank you... when you mention the 'pride of life' I felt that "wow of course" and Johns 1st Epistle spoke in my head. Your last sentence reminds me of people I've met who when I'm around them I sense exactly what you mean and feel as if I am briefly glimpse a place where I can at some point be. It doesn't seem to be the place of the aged or the mature but rather the surrendered and connected. I see a mile marker though for myself... hopefully the off ramp soon.

 

[Civil Shephard]

What is poor.

Not having enough resources to live by?
Not having the resources to take care of yourSelf,
or the people you love?

eh

or maybe
not having "stuff".
Having nothing.

Poor in spirit?

double eh.

The analogy really doesn't speak to me at all.

I could only stretch it to maybe mean,
"Being Observer",
and realizing the rest
is all how you create yourSelf.

But then,
I am no christian.
Lack does not appeal to me.
Neither does poverty.

EDIT: sorry. just noticed the DIR.
I'll remove the post if you prefer.
Still, perhaps it raises some good questions?
Maybe not.

"Being Observer", I like that! And please not to worry Ultraviolet, I value your observations and find them the product of a razor sharp mind. How do I create myself? I think that you mean how does being an observer of life affect all that is in their sphere? I think you may have caught the essence of poor in spirit as only and empathetic person could. But I don't know... elaborate if you wish.

IBlessed also means Happy I've read. But there is a second and third beatitude that I think shows attributes of that same poverty of spirit. Mercy, concern, meekness, pure in heart, peace makers and persecuted for righteousness sake all tie in.

Have you read the Sermon on the Mount recently?

 

[waitasec]

... for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'd like to go one beatitude at a time and ask.

Rather you believe in Christ or not... what does this beatitude mean to you and how have you applied it in your life?

(Please also... I'm not looking for argument here. If you're Christian please don't bite into any taunts.)

(Also please note that when I write on this I will be quick referencing other parts of the Sermon on the Mount so if you're not familiar with Matthew 5 6 and 7 please do read the Sermon.)

To me...

I once read in a commentary I think that the poor in spirit are those who totally rely on God for all of their needs. And I feel the spirit of the first beatitude is something so powerful that it gets missed. I first understood it as akin to AA's first step. Having grown up in AA meetings with my mother I was very familiar with step 1's interpretation of the admission of powerlessness. I found that letting go and letting God was something that could save me from making an issue worse by trying to handle things myself. Aside of course from natural human obligations like work and personal maintenance.

So... I think now I feel that the most important aspect of this first beatitude is to remain poor in my opinion of myself, my words and my deeds. Who am I and who is God so to speak? I mean... it helps me throw myself into a selflessness I really don't think I can posses for more than moments at a time. It also shows on the smiles and in the eyes of satisfied friends and acquaintances who seem to be seeing my good works and giving glory to Father in Heaven and not me.

The poor in spirit to me are those who have given up allowing pride to control feelings and have given themselves over to a more mournful and merciful standard of judgment. I think mostly the poor in spirit are those who realize that casting pearls before swine is a cross to bear as much as it is something to be avoided when you're able too.

And lastly... the Kingdom of Heaven is a reward of internal peace in the face of adversity and sometimes even in times of refreshing when all those things added unto us are truly received with gratitude and humility. It is the joy of doing the right thing for the right reasons and letting your heart skip a beat as you see that joy overflow onto someone else.

So again I ask...

Rather you believe in Christ or not... what does this beatitude mean to you and how have you applied it in your life?

i think i means your consequence may be humble, or humiliating but you are so much more than that...

 

[dmgdnooc]

Thank you... when you mention the 'pride of life' I felt that "wow of course" and Johns 1st Epistle spoke in my head. Your last sentence reminds me of people I've met who when I'm around them I sense exactly what you mean and feel as if I am briefly glimpse a place where I can at some point be. It doesn't seem to be the place of the aged or the mature but rather the surrendered and connected. I see a mile marker though for myself... hopefully the off ramp soon.

OK, I'll say some more.
　
Yes, if by surrendered and connected you also mean beaten and chastised.
The human spirit really is, for all intents and purposes, indomitable.
It never lays down by its own volition and always seeks another avenue through which to arise.
It is a Leviathan; upon which one might lay his hand, remember the battle, but do no more.
　
Those truly 'poor in spirit' have had the spirit knocked out of them, been winded by outrageous events and circumstances, and find themselves on their knees and helpless.
In the main, like Job, they are dragged by the scruff of the neck bitterly complaining all the way to the realisation that they are but 'dust and ashes' and the only thing that really matters to them any more is the prospect of the Kingdom.
It is a thing that has been done to them, they have been made poor, caused to be paupered in spirit, and, at the last, they find there is no cause for pride left to them.
Not even a pride in their poverty.
　
Not necessarily a pleasant journey; but one I understand that you undertake willingly; safe journey brother.

 

[blackout]

When you let go of everything,
you are able to simply "be observer".
This creates a huge reality shift,
which could easily be called/experienced as
the paradigm of 'kingdom on earth'.
(if that is your vocabulary)

When life kicks the S' out of you,
it helps you let go of stuff.
It forces you to a decision of what your really do
and don't want. or need.

At deaths door,
(body/mind/spirit)
you re'evaluate.
If you want to live.

Other comments
I will refrain from making in the christian DIR.

 

[Civil Shephard]

i think i means your consequence may be humble, or humiliating but you are so much more than that...

Well... I think you mean to not chose to be humiliated attempting to live by this verse. But the verse itself does not stand alone and is backed up by the rest of the Sermon on the Mount. I believe Jesus describes the humility contained in this verse by the types of behaviors that please our Creator. Don't blow trumpets when you give to the poor... don't make loud hey look at me prayers... don't fast to be seen but do things quietly in secret as unto your God and not unto man sort of thing.

It seems to me that many philanthropic organizations would thrive in helping the truly needy if they followed the advice of Jesus. Too many take advantage of what someone else believes so I've learned the hard way and am still learning how to not let my right hand know what my left hand is doing.

How many psychiatrist does it take to change a light bulb? Only one... but the light bulb has to want to change.

 

[Civil Shephard]

OK, I'll say some more.
　
Yes, if by surrendered and connected you also mean beaten and chastised.
The human spirit really is, for all intents and purposes, indomitable.
It never lays down by its own volition and always seeks another avenue through which to arise.
It is a Leviathan; upon which one might lay his hand, remember the battle, but do no more.
　
Those truly 'poor in spirit' have had the spirit knocked out of them, been winded by outrageous events and circumstances, and find themselves on their knees and helpless.
In the main, like Job, they are dragged by the scruff of the neck bitterly complaining all the way to the realization that they are but 'dust and ashes' and the only thing that really matters to them any more is the prospect of the Kingdom.
It is a thing that has been done to them, they have been made poor, caused to be paupered in spirit, and, at the last, they find there is no cause for pride left to them.
Not even a pride in their poverty.
　
Not necessarily a pleasant journey; but one I understand that you undertake willingly; safe journey brother.

Not even a pride in their poverty. I have to say that one eluded me for awhile. It's funny how pride and humility can often be well... disguised and indistinguishable from one another. I once had a good friend loudly proclaim "I'm a very humble person!" to wit I laughed so hard that I had to explain later. At another time I rode down the road with a friend with a ministry for homeless people who was complaining about all the complaining that was going on in his ministry. We are as you say...The human spirit really is, for all intents and purposes, indomitable.

Thank you again dmgdnoo...

 

[Civil Shephard]

When you let go of everything,
you are able to simply "be observer".
This creates a huge reality shift,
which could easily be called/experienced as
the paradigm of 'kingdom on earth'.
(if that is your vocabulary)

When life kicks the S' out of you,
it helps you let go of stuff.
It forces you to a decision of what your really do
and don't want. or need.

At deaths door,
(body/mind/spirit)
you re'evaluate.
If you want to live.

Other comments
I will refrain from making in the christian DIR.

I'll have to google paradigm ...

A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline (thefreedictionary.com)

Well... here again let me state that if you look at the verse alone there is no real connection to the teaching contained in this verse as a whole.

In the beatitudes alone I think one can assume that the Poor in Spirit are also Those who Mourn and Those who hunger and thirst for Righteousness and Merciful. And further the characteristics of folks like these are clearly described in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount and indeed in all of Christ teachings.

When life kicks the S' out of you,
it helps you let go of stuff.
It forces you to a decision of what your really do
and don't want. or need.

I want to be poor in spirit... because I believe that our creator gave us these words to focus us on the attitudes and behaviors that would transcend science and even this life to the point where love through us would forgive sins and heal hearts and bodies. A truly blessed and happy person has an overflow... and wether they are serving soup at a soup kitchen or doing your taxes they bring heaven to the eye's and ears of those who are looking for truth. They embody a poverty of spirit that makes other rich with a thirst for goodness.

 

[dmgdnooc]

Not even a pride in their poverty. I have to say that one eluded me for awhile. It's funny how pride and humility can often be well... disguised and indistinguishable from one another. I once had a good friend loudly proclaim "I'm a very humble person!" to wit I laughed so hard that I had to explain later. At another time I rode down the road with a friend with a ministry for homeless people who was complaining about all the complaining that was going on in his ministry. We are as you say...The human spirit really is, for all intents and purposes, indomitable.

Thank you again dmgdnoo...

Ah, you percieve the point and neatly relate it to your own experience, I'm again encouraged to say more.
　
We can recognise that the humility of the verse is not a false humility that is drawn as a cloak over the raging inner pride for an outward show, or form, of Godliness; whose intention is deception by means of a disguise.
Such a deception may be effective with men but must fail before God.
　
The 'poor in spirit' are blessed, theirs 'is' the Kingdom of Heaven.
They are gifted with the Kingdom; are right now, in their present, in receipt of that most precious of gifts and, in essence, dwell in His presence.
And yet they are living, breathing human beings who may be among us on the Earth now; as there were some, at least, who were in Jesus' day.
They are not dead, pride still lurks within them ready to arise; they are 'poor' in spirit, not devoid of, or completely lacking in, spirit.
They are subject still to the pressures of being human, so how do they keep their pride down?
　
Earlier I mentioned Leviathan, who is 'a king over all the children of pride'; the implacable, resolute, unreasoning beast, who serves none but himself and recognises no master greater than his own purpose.
God gave Job some advice in regards this creature.
'lay thine hand upon him' that is (as a supplicant would lay his hand on the sacrificial animal and identify himself with it) identify yourself with him, acknowledge that he is close by, even a part of you.
'remember the battle' recognise that warfare, continual warfare, is your only option when dealing with this creature.
'do no more' don't accept the beast or bargain with it or try to make peace with it; just prepare for battle.
It seems that a Christian must ever hold this attitude towards their pride if, like Job, they are to receive the blessing of the Kingdom.
　
In your first post you spoke of 'powerlessness' and of giving up 'allowing pride to control feelings'.
I would like to hear more from you on these. Please.

 

[blackout]

Maybe insert, "Experience" for "Paradigm"
(in my previous post)
for a better sense of what I was trying to say.

I of course meant paradigm/or paradigm shift in personal terms.
ie, how you experience, relate to, understand, view, your own reality/existence/surroundings.

The term "paradigm shift" has found uses in other contexts, representing the notion of a major change in a certain thought-pattern — a radical change in personal beliefs, complex systems or organizations, replacing the former way of thinking or organizing with a radically different way of thinking or organizing:

The Carlos Casteneda books refer to this as the Shifting of one's Assemblage point.
Or, a major Shift in the way one assembles, experiences and views their reality.
It is an actual experience. A total shift of life perspective.
It's like the freefall, when the rug of your reality, gets pulled out from under your feet.

If I come up with a better term (for the sake of clear communication)
I will happily insert it. Perhaps simply "Major Reality Shift",
would be clearer. I don't know.
Paradigm Shift, to me, seems to capture it best though.
Of course this would be a subjective paradigm shift,
and not a scientific one.
Not a "community" thing, but a personal one.

I speak of this all from personal experience BTW.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[astarath]

Should we be inviting atheists in to see this I am impressed by this convo

 

[blackout]

I certainly hunger and mourn for righteousness and mercy in my own life,
and in the lives of my children.

First I must raise my OWN sword of righteousness,
love and fight for my own inheratence,
my own SOVEREIGNTY,
and that of my children.

Then I accept the 'mercy'- scratch that-... the active LOVE...
of the people who actually know and love me
and WANT to help me simply because they love and care about me. Specifically.
(as a cooling salve)
not because I am some "charity" or "chance to do gods work",
or whatever.
But only because they love me.

I don't accept "charity".
If you need to call your "free groceries" charity,
and the stuff you give out
supposedly to help people or make them happy,
for the sake of your own self though,
knock yourself out.

I'm really not big on mercy either.
Either you love people,
genuinely care about their humanity,
realize that the only answer for humanity as a whole
is to TRULY work together,
as soverign individuals,
beyond the walls of the system,
or you don't.

I find the idea of both mercy and charity, condescending.
Obviously I am in the minority on this.
(and not only in this DIR, but in general)

Hope you don't mind my continued comments.

I am rarely allowed this much latitude in these conversations,
and am usually ignored.
So anyway, your tolerance, and possible? interest
is a nice change.

~V~

 

[blackout]

Should we be inviting atheists in to see this I am impressed by this convo

I'm not an athiest.

and it's Civil's thread.

If he gives the sign that my comments
are no longer relevant to the point of his thread,
or the boundaries of his DIR,
I will respectfully exit.

 

[blackout]

Anyway, let me say before I get the boot,
that I still enjoy the kingdom teachings attributed to Yeshua.

The idea that the kingdom is Now,
surrounding and around you...
ie... in Your Midst...
branching out and rising up,
has been my own life experience.

It doesn't matter what vocabulary you give it really,
or what analagies you use,
if they point to the same EXPERIENCE.

I have a feeling that vocabulary is going to be my major disconnect here,
more than the practical bottom line of my viewpoint.

So anyway, thank you for having allowed me to express mySelf here a bit.
I do try to be respectful of people's DIR's.
They are important.
I know, because I essentially lost mine.
(but that is nothing for here)

 

[astarath]

To the contrary it was a compliment to the ideas being presented.

 

[blackout]

To the contrary it was a compliment to the ideas being presented.

Ahh... well thank you then.

that TRULY is unusual.

 

[Civil Shephard]

Ah, you percieve the point and neatly relate it to your own experience, I'm again encouraged to say more.
　
We can recognise that the humility of the verse is not a false humility that is drawn as a cloak over the raging inner pride for an outward show, or form, of Godliness; whose intention is deception by means of a disguise.
Such a deception may be effective with men but must fail before God.

I think this again is part of the whole picture of what I know to be a 2000 year old sermon that I believe we have in it's purest original form. The beatitude is explained not just by the other beatitudes but also as Jesus explains the difference between hypocrisy and those who secretly please God.

But you pose a question of how do the poor in spirit keep pride down and say...　
　

Earlier I mentioned Leviathan, who is 'a king over all the children of pride...

...don't accept the beast or bargain with it or try to make peace with it; just prepare for battle.
It seems that a Christian must ever hold this attitude towards their pride if, like Job, they are to receive the blessing of the Kingdom.

Paul said 'knowledge puffeth up but charity edifieth...' well, at least that's how I remember it as a friend of mine who loves the King James version recited it to me. The battle is always there but I thank the Lord for times of refreshing. Like this present moment as I type this...
　

In your first post you spoke of 'powerlessness' and of giving up 'allowing pride to control feelings'.

I would like to hear more from you on these. Please.

Oh.. I had to re-read it. I was talking about where I recieved my first real insight into how God worked in peoples lives. Going to AA meetings at around the age of 7 to 10 years old with a parent was perhaps where I first heard the word of powerlessness and apparently I asked alot of questions about it. I think that later when I decided to read Jesus there was an attraction to this first beatitude because I'd met so many wonderful adults who cussed and talked about God and let me eat all the cookies I wanted... anywho... the concept of powerlessness over alcohol seemed to work on all sorts of things I applied that same concept too from dealing with bullies to a chocolate addiction and shop lifting. Mom was a great listener after a meeting and showed me how to get to my feelings behind my questions... sort of honesty first then lets find truth approach. That way the motive for finding truth was based in humility instead of pride.

Now I have a real taste for chocolate.