Blind faith in Native beliefs??

[Master Vigil]

Hmm... It seems that the natives believed in what they saw. Not what they hoped existed. Do their beliefs include blind faith? Does it take blind faith to believe a tree has life? Or if a deer has life? If the sun gives life? If water gives life? Is it blind faith to believe that all things with life possess a spirit? And that a great spirit gave birth to all spirits? What do you think??

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Is it blind faith to believe that all things with life possess a spirit? And that a great spirit gave birth to all spirits? What do you think??

Yes, I think this is blind faith. It is belief not founded in observation or critical analysis.

 

[Master Vigil]

Well take their observation: all things have life. They believe life is spirit. That is just their definition of spirit. And that life is a powerful one. Some natives had the sun and moon as gods, not a supernatural being. They recognize the way of the seasons, the lunar cycles, the stars, etc... Their observation took them on vision quests, and took them closer to nature than many who believe in blind faith. Perhaps what they believe comes from observation, and not a book.

It's funny when you talk to native's about spirituality compared to christians. I once asked a choctaw why he believed what he believed, and he said... "One morning I was working on a new spear, and a wind blew through the trees. It blew so quietly but all the birds quickly flew into the air. What was it that the wind told them? And then it blew through me, not around me... THROUGH ME!!! It was then that I knew. When you listen, the earth can speak to you. I believe in what I see, what I hear, what I smell."

Now when you ask a christian that, they would say... "Because god said so in his word."

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This is still blind faith, I think, Master Vigil. There is no observation that would suggest that the wind is nothing more than, well, WIND, just as there is no obervation that would suggest that the Bible is nothing more than an ancient book written by men.

 

[Master Vigil]

But the wind being just wind is exactly what they observe. They are not marveling at the "supernatural" powers of it. They are marveling at the natural powers of it. The fact that the world can do SO much without our help is what people of the earth marvel at. Some christian thinkers might look at their ideas of gods and spirits and compare them to their own. But this is not the case. Everything is much simpler for them.

 

[Lightkeeper]

But the wind being just wind is exactly what they observe. They are not marveling at the "supernatural" powers of it. They are marveling at the natural powers of it. The fact that the world can do SO much without our help is what people of the earth marvel at. Some christian thinkers might look at their ideas of gods and spirits and compare them to their own. But this is not the case. Everything is much simpler for them.

Good post. In fact isn't what many of us are looking for is the "awe?" Being in awe is so freeing.

 

[Master Vigil]

The awe is what inspires imagination. And imagination is what inspires good stories. But those stories are in fact stories, that in the end talk about the awe of natural events. The awe can also allow a spiritual person to become connected to the earth, and then able to listen to it. Become a student of the earth, not a master of it.

 

[Lightkeeper]

To become like a child again. A child is in awe and everything is an adventure. They are connected, not separated by learned dogma.

 

[dolly]

Do their beliefs include blind faith?

Beliefs don't make blind faith. The reason why a person believes something is what makes it blind or not. With that in mind, I would say no - their beliefs do not "include blind faith" by themselves.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think its still blind faith, I mean rain dances and such--they have no effect on whether or not it will rain. And spirits...belief in them is based on faith not observation.

 

[Master Vigil]

I believe in spirits due to my observation. Not faith. Perhaps their bond with the earth allowed them to observe spirits. And remember their ideas of spirits are not supernatural, but natural. I don't doubt that some rituals they did were blind, but I think the core ideas among the native people were not due to blind faith.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well, why don't I see any spirits?

 

[painted wolf]

maybe you don't look

faith in native cultures is a bit different from the faith of 'organized' religions. Many of the things natives believe come not only from 'religious faith' but from countless generations of practice and modification. The ceremonies of today aren't exactly like the cerimonies of 400 or eaven 100 years ago. If something doesn't work for you, you don't use it. If it does then you keep it.

anyway, back to cerimonies, they often held importance not simply as 'religous expression' but also in 'cultural expression'. They bring everyone together to celebrate an event that has meaning for the people as a whole.
As far as healing ceremonies and the like, native people are clever people, they figured out that presentation is just as important to healing as the actual medicine. If the patient believes that a ceremony will work than it will, simple psycology. An impressive ceremony will strenthin that belief in the power of healing and, not surprizingly the patent will heal better.

one more thing... if I see spirits and they guide me to improve my life, does it really matter if they are truely there or just manifestations of my psyche? I would hope that everyone strives to make a better person of themselves, and if the way chosen works for them shouldn't that be all that counts?

wa:do

 

[Runt]

if I see spirits and they guide me to improve my life, does it really matter if they are truely there or just manifestations of my psyche?

I agree; that is how I approach the concept of Gods, spirits, etc etc etc. I PERSONALLY don't believe they exist, but I think they are symbolic of aspects of the psyche (the overall human psyche, not just one individual human's) and therefore have value regardless of whether or not they literally exist. Just as we can recognize universal human traits and learn important things about ourselves by examining fictional characters in literature. I think chaoists (sp?) look at it this way too.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Do you think the spirits you see may be entirely in your imagination?

If the spirits truly make you a better person, then I agree that is what is important. However, are you sure you would be such a bad person if you didn't believe in spirits?

Belief in spirits can be a bad thing too....people can stop thinking for themselves, and behave irradically.

faith in native cultures is a bit different from the faith of 'organized' religions. Many of the things natives believe come not only from 'religious faith' but from countless generations of practice and modification. The ceremonies of today aren't exactly like the cerimonies of 400 or eaven 100 years ago. If something doesn't work for you, you don't use it. If it does then you keep it.

So, you try a raindance, and if it rains later, it "worked"....then the confirmation bias takes over and it becomes ritual and is believed to work. If I wanted to know whether or not a raindance works, I would do some experimenting and keep an accurate record over many trials. So I suppose this wouldn't be 'blind faith' so much as, with all due respect, poor execution of critical thinking....?

 

[(Q)]

MV

Well take their observation: all things have life. They believe life is spirit. That is just their definition of spirit.

The problem though is that the term 'spirit' can be defined as the vital principle or animating force within living things or the state of a person's emotions while it can also be defined as any incorporeal supernatural being that can become visible (or audible) to human beings.

If any reference is made to the latter, then we can only conclude this is a belief not grounded with evidence. The former can be misconstrued as semantics.

 

[Master Vigil]

Perhaps the problem is that the evidence is not shared with the entire human population. Does something have to be percieved by the whole or even majority of the population for it to exist?

Many believe it to be the former, some the latter. I believe it to be both. Except I wouldn't say that it is supernatural, I believe them to be completely natural.

 

[(Q)]

Does something have to be percieved by the whole or even majority of the population for it to exist?

Not necessarily, but if it exists, then the entire populace should be able to percieve it. Yet it only appears a very small select group of individuals has that privledge. So, the question to ask is, why do those individuals see spirits and no else does?

And please don't say that they aren't looking.

Except I wouldn't say that it is supernatural, I believe them to be completely natural.

If natural, then we would all see them and be able to detect them and their mechanisms for existing in the natural world. Yet...

If supernatural, then they would not be detectable or visible to anyone.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I believe in spirits due to my observation.

The world is full of phenomena which run the gammut from childish lies aimed at getting attention to optical illusions to misperceptions to psychotic hallucinations. You can value your observations however much you choose, but the embarrassing lack of verifiable evidence for Spirits, Ghosts, Pixies, Leprachauns, Unicorns, and the rest should caution others against placing too much value in them.

 

[painted wolf]

yes, the belief in spirits is much like the belief in miracles.... it all depends on perseption and one should look at them with a truely open mind, ie. open to the possibility of falce as much as the possiblility of true.

Honestly I think that the belief in spirits is a psycological/metaphorical mecanism used to see the rest of the world. Does that invalidate the belief? To me, no, it doesn't.
Eaven bad spirits have something to teach... you can't ignore your personal demons so to speak. I admit that some people take belief in spirits too far, but then some people take any belief to far. That is one of the inherant human weaknesses that some people are prone to.

As for the not looking thing, I was just yanking Spinkles chain And no, I don't think that not believing in spirits is a bad thing, unless it makes you callous to your fellow life forms.

I do agree Q that the very definition of 'spirit' is far to vague to be of any use in a proper discussion. I also have a problem with the 'select few' argument. Any phenomina that is excluded to only the 'chosen' is dubious.

wa:do