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Book of John

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
In the book of John 20: 9-12.

Verse 9-"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead"

Ok, So who's the dead here?

Verse 10--"Then the disciples went away again unto their own home"

Verse 11--"But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stoop down, and looked into the sepulchre"

Verse 12--"And sees two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had lain"

In the scriptures, what are the two angels revealing by the way they are sitting ?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
In the book of John 20: 9-12.

Verse 9-"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead"

Ok, So who's the dead here?

Verse 10--"Then the disciples went away again unto their own home"

Verse 11--"But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stoop down, and looked into the sepulchre"

Verse 12--"And sees two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had lain"

In the scriptures, what are the two angels revealing by the way they are sitting ?
It is unfortunate that we Christians are so divided in our Christian dogma. In regard to who the dead are, the answer is simple. Until the kingdom is established all the dead sleep in death in the grave, Sheol, Hades, the Sea. After judgment day finishes, the dead who are not judged wicked shall rise in Paradise, the kingdom that governs all earth, Christ's kingdom, the kingdom of heavens.

Since we see that Mary had to stoop down to look into the hewn out grave, the angels obviously had to sit because it had a low ceiling. I also find it interesting, though it is off subject, that though the angels are perfect, never do we hear about them going naked. This means that clothing is not just for the imperfect ones; it might be reasonable to postulate that even in Paradise clothing shall be required.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
In the book of John 20: 9-12.

Verse 9-"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead"

Ok, So who's the dead here?

Verse 10--"Then the disciples went away again unto their own home"

Verse 11--"But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stoop down, and looked into the sepulchre"

Verse 12--"And sees two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had lain"

In the scriptures, what are the two angels revealing by the way they are sitting ?
The "dead" is Jesus after he raised all those saints who had died before, and waited in Hades. Matthew 27:51-53

The disciples heard Jesus say he would raised up (3 days) but didn't know it would be "from the dead". Had they believed, they would not have grieved when he died.

The scriptures we read is from their hindsight that led up to the Gospel message (good news) that death is spiritual life if we follow (Christ).

I see nothing in angelic positions or words.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The "dead" is Jesus after he raised all those saints who had died before, and waited in Hades. Matthew 27:51-53

The disciples heard Jesus say he would raised up (3 days) but didn't know it would be "from the dead". Had they believed, they would not have grieved when he died.

The scriptures we read is from their hindsight that led up to the Gospel message (good news) that death is spiritual life if we follow (Christ).

I see nothing in angelic positions or words.

Jesus risen from the dead, Who is the dead?
 

socharlie

Active Member
In the book of John 20: 9-12.

Verse 9-"For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead"

Ok, So who's the dead here?

Verse 10--"Then the disciples went away again unto their own home"

Verse 11--"But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stoop down, and looked into the sepulchre"

Verse 12--"And sees two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had lain"

In the scriptures, what are the two angels revealing by the way they are sitting ?
Ek nekron in Greek means from among dead people, not corpses. Two angels: etheric and astral bodies of Jesus.
 

socharlie

Active Member
It is unfortunate that we Christians are so divided in our Christian dogma. In regard to who the dead are, the answer is simple. Until the kingdom is established all the dead sleep in death in the grave, Sheol, Hades, the Sea. After judgment day finishes, the dead who are not judged wicked shall rise in Paradise, the kingdom that governs all earth, Christ's kingdom, the kingdom of heavens.

Since we see that Mary had to stoop down to look into the hewn out grave, the angels obviously had to sit because it had a low ceiling. I also find it interesting, though it is off subject, that though the angels are perfect, never do we hear about them going naked. This means that clothing is not just for the imperfect ones; it might be reasonable to postulate that even in Paradise clothing shall be required.
Sheol is not exactly a grave, it rather hades as in afterlife.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Ek nekron in Greek means from among dead people, not corpses. Two angels: etheric and astral bodies of Jesus.


Look all I ask, is what are two angels revealing in the way they are sitting.

One at the head and one at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had laid.

What is the purpose of the angels sitting in the way their sitting.
 

socharlie

Active Member
Look all I ask, is what are two angels revealing in the way they are sitting.

One at the head and one at the feet, Where the body of Jesus had laid.

What is the purpose of the angels sitting in the way their sitting.
what it all says that only Mary was able to see resurrected Jesus - was enlightened but "Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved" were not able to Jesus yet
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
what it all says that only Mary was able to see resurrected Jesus - was enlightened but "Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved" were not able to Jesus yet

What your saying, has nothing to do with,
Why the two angels were sitting in the way they were sitting.
What were the two angels revealing in the way they were sitting.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
"she turned around and saw Jesus standing there"
those two were Jesus - soul and spirit.

Are you freaking kidding me, all your doing is adding to and deleting from God's word.

There is no where to give support to what your saying. Nice try. But it will not work
Try again.
Unless you can give the Verse's in John Chapter 20, as to where it will say what your saying.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
my God gave me different information about afterlife...
I don't mind. I have no agenda except to understand scripture. If God chose to reveal something else, that would be what I believed. It is then for me a matter of what authority you choose to base your belief system on.

If you have questions, etc., let me know.:)
 
The "dead" is Jesus after he raised all those saints who had died before, and waited in Hades. Matthew 27:51-53

The disciples heard Jesus say he would raised up (3 days) but didn't know it would be "from the dead". Had they believed, they would not have grieved when he died.

The scriptures we read is from their hindsight that led up to the Gospel message (good news) that death is spiritual life if we follow (Christ).

I see nothing in angelic positions or words.

at matt.27:51-53 this scripture is not talking about a resurrection from the dead because this scripture is talking about the moment Jesus died.Nobody was resurrected before Jesus and Jesus promised the apostles who are called saints or holy ones that they would get a resurrection like his at his 2nd presence or 2nd coming so nobody would be resurrected before the apostles neither.Matt. 27:51-53 is simply saying that a earthquake at the time of Jesus death is so massive that holy ones bodies or corpses were raised from the memorial tombs these bodies or corpses could be visibly seen
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
at matt.27:51-53 this scripture is not talking about a resurrection from the dead because this scripture is talking about the moment Jesus died.Nobody was resurrected before Jesus and Jesus promised the apostles who are called saints or holy ones that they would get a resurrection like his at his 2nd presence or 2nd coming so nobody would be resurrected before the apostles neither.Matt. 27:51-53 is simply saying that a earthquake at the time of Jesus death is so massive that holy ones bodies or corpses were raised from the memorial tombs these bodies or corpses could be visibly seen
That IS the catholic (orthodox) viewpoint.

If the thief died hours after Jesus, how did he receive paradise?

Jesus was resurrected in the "twinkling of an eye" (spiritually). He went to Hades to free those from the grave (who were saved by faith) who died before him. Spirituality is not subject to "time" like the physical realm (Aeon).

"And I went into the realm of darkness and I endured till I entered the middle of the prison. And the foundations of chaos shook. And I hid myself from them because of their wickedness, and they did not recognize me.

"Again I returned for the second time, and I went about. I came forth from those who belong to the light, which is I, the remembrance of the Pronoia. I entered into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades, since I was seeking (to accomplish) my task. And the foundations of chaos shook, that they might fall down upon those who are in chaos and might destroy them. And again I ran up to my root of light, lest they be destroyed before the time.

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.

"And I raised him up, and sealed him in the light of the water with five seals, in order that death might not have power over him from this time on.

"And behold, now I shall go up to the perfect aeon. I have completed everything for you in your hearing. And I have said everything to you that you might write them down and give them secretly to your fellow spirits, for this is the mystery of the immovable race." -Secret John

I see this view as much more plausible in identifying the Gospels and Pauls teachings.

It explains a lot. Like when Jesus said this:

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Gnosis is a different perspective, but brings the Gospel and Paul much more alive and understanding to me.

Your mileage may vary.
 
That IS the catholic (orthodox) viewpoint.

If the thief died hours after Jesus, how did he receive paradise?

Jesus was resurrected in the "twinkling of an eye" (spiritually). He went to Hades to free those from the grave (who were saved by faith) who died before him. Spirituality is not subject to "time" like the physical realm (Aeon).

"And I went into the realm of darkness and I endured till I entered the middle of the prison. And the foundations of chaos shook. And I hid myself from them because of their wickedness, and they did not recognize me.

"Again I returned for the second time, and I went about. I came forth from those who belong to the light, which is I, the remembrance of the Pronoia. I entered into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades, since I was seeking (to accomplish) my task. And the foundations of chaos shook, that they might fall down upon those who are in chaos and might destroy them. And again I ran up to my root of light, lest they be destroyed before the time.

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.

"And I raised him up, and sealed him in the light of the water with five seals, in order that death might not have power over him from this time on.

"And behold, now I shall go up to the perfect aeon. I have completed everything for you in your hearing. And I have said everything to you that you might write them down and give them secretly to your fellow spirits, for this is the mystery of the immovable race." -Secret John

I see this view as much more plausible in identifying the Gospels and Pauls teachings.

It explains a lot. Like when Jesus said this:

John:
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Gnosis is a different perspective, but brings the Gospel and Paul much more alive and understanding to me.

Your mileage may vary.

Jesus was dead for three days, then he was resurrected back to life.The thief you are talking about is still dead he hasn't been resurrected yet,but in the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which is in the future he will be resurrected on paradise earth.No one has been resurrected before Jesus or the Apostles,Jesus promised the Apostles they would be resurrected in the first resurrection,so no one was resurrected at the time of Jesus death and no one except Jesus was resurrected at the time of his resurrection
whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were, and he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up,the Greek verb e·gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground.
In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life because The third day after Jesus death he was resurrected and Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.—1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14-17.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Jesus was dead for three days, then he was resurrected back to life.The thief you are talking about is still dead he hasn't been resurrected yet,but in the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which is in the future he will be resurrected on paradise earth.No one has been resurrected before Jesus or the Apostles,Jesus promised the Apostles they would be resurrected in the first resurrection,so no one was resurrected at the time of Jesus death and no one except Jesus was resurrected at the time of his resurrection
whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were, and he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up,the Greek verb e·gei′ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground.
In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the apostle Paul gives convincing proof of the resurrection, but he completely ignores Matthew 27:52, 53. So do all other Bible writers. (Acts 2:32, 34) The corpses raised up at Jesus’ death could not have come to life because The third day after Jesus death he was resurrected and Jesus became “the firstborn from the dead.” (Colossians 1:18) Anointed Christians, also called “holy ones,” were promised a share in the first resurrection during Christ’s presence, not in the first century.—1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:14-17.
As I said, orthodox catholic teachings. I do not see "days" since the spirit is not governed by them. The flesh is.

To not "taste" death, one is "spiritually resurrected" first. The Jews tasted death. A Christ does not. Unless you die first, the resurrection (spiritual) hasn't occurred. Jesus never judged by the flesh and neither do I.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.- Philip

The words Jesus spoke were a seed. The Holy Spirit is the fertile soil. (not the Bible). The Catholics created the Bible, not God.

He who has knowledge of the truth is a free man, but the free man does not sin, for "He who sins is the slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). Truth is the mother, knowledge the father. Those who think that sinning does not apply to them are called "free" by the world. Knowledge of the truth merely makes such people arrogant, which is what the words, "it makes them free" mean. It even gives them a sense of superiority over the whole world. But "Love builds up" (1 Co 8:1). In fact, he who is really free, through knowledge, is a slave, because of love for those who have not yet been able to attain to the freedom of knowledge. Knowledge makes them capable of becoming free. - Philip

Those who created this Bible of theirs (catholic orthodoxy) became so arrogant, they resorted to murder to force their doctrine on man. Knowledge (gnosis) defines the true love, the way of the (Holy) Spirit, and the gift it offers. This is what "free" means. Once the knowledge is understood (from the Spirit given by Jesus), the Acts of Jesus (canon gospels) shows how Jesus became Christ and that we become Christ as well.

But the priests returned to take back the knowledge, and use it as power over the flesh. Unless one see's this, he follows the world, and dies.

"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.- Secret James

Unless you seek what is hidden, you cannot find it.

(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."- Thomas

Jesus opened the gate of knowledge (veil) and the priests rose again to close it (Nicaea).

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."- Thomas

Ink is of the world, and can be easily manipulative. Jesus warned us of the scribes. As well as priests (celestial leaders).
 
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