Brain scans during an out of body experience

[1137]

PLEASE stop misrepresenting science! Science does not exist to support your beliefs! You can't make it do so no matter how badly you want that to be the case!

I don't need science to explain my beliefs - I try to understand fact and objective reality as much as possible, then apply that knowledge to my own spiritual workings. It's the opposite of yours and George's process of choosing a belief and either perverting scientific findings or ignoring scientific findings - and logical inferences based on those findings - to back your belief. It's black and white, dark and light, total contradiction. Just as you see it negatively that I utilize science for knowledge rather than ignorance for belief, I see fideism as near a 'sin'.

Hopefully that paints a better picture of my position. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're simply confused and not creating straw men.

 

[nazz]

I don't need science to explain my beliefs - I try to understand fact and objective reality as much as possible, then apply that knowledge to my own spiritual workings. It's the opposite of yours and George's process of choosing a belief and either perverting scientific findings or ignoring scientific findings - and logical inferences based on those findings - to back your belief. It's black and white, dark and light, total contradiction. Just as you see it negatively that I utilize science for knowledge rather than ignorance for belief, I see fideism as near a 'sin'.

Hopefully that paints a better picture of my position. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're simply confused and not creating straw men.

You just go through saying science has addressed George's beliefs which is sheer nonsense. So I think you are misrepresenting yourself, you are misrepresenting science, you are DEFINITELY misrepresenting me, and I think our "conversation" should be over.

 

[1137]

You just go through saying science has addressed George's beliefs which is sheer nonsense. So I think you are misrepresenting yourself, you are misrepresenting science, you are DEFINITELY misrepresenting me, and I think our "conversation" should be over.

Actually, it is true. We have no reason to believe consciousness is not a product of the brain and every reason to believe it is. I've never figured out why this is such a horrible thing for people - I can't even put forth a solid theory. I'm not sure how you can misrepresent science either, unless you haven't passed 2nd grade. I'm certainly not, especially since I'm not even discussing science, only scientific findings.

As for the ******** on the carpet and storming out the door -

No need for apologies. People often avoid playing what they have no chance of winning at. Although, keep in mind that if you want to think of yourself, in your own mind, as some type of rationalist, that's perfectly fine. However, if you insist on traipsing such notions out in front of educated and intelligent people, then they are going to be challenged as long as you do not convey things that are rational. You may find that repeatedly running away helps maintain your inner identity as a rational person, but it isn't convincing anyone other than yourself.

 

[atanu]

OTOH, is it not you who believes that the intelligence is a product of certain physico-chemical interactions among otherwise inert materials -- and thus is absolutely deterministic?

How do you know that what you are saying is not determined? That you have no choice but to parrot what you are parroting, without pausing to think? When you assert determinism, why do you leave the option of free will and objective understanding for yourself? Why do you think that you have any competence to determine the truth value of a proposition, when the so-called intelligence that you use is, as per your own admission, a deterministic product of play of inert materials.

Or, did the chemicals leave you alone with objective thinking capacity? And for us it determined our foolishness?

Just saying.

First of all your posts suggest you have no understanding of neuroscience or how psychophysiology works.

"In a deterministic world, the answer is obvious-never cheat."

That is a very good answer. Congrats man.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The complexity of the brain does matter to those that believe consciousness is non-physical. Consciousness (which is infinite) can express itself on the physical plane only to the extent of the organisms' complexity and health.

Receiver health and quality matter.

Receiver damaged or effected by chemicals; strange consciousness

Receiver temporarily broke; no physical consciousness

Receiver permanently broke; no physical consciousness expressed ever again through that receiver

And "brain as radio receiver" is certainly an interesting idea for science fiction/fantasy writing or for religious or spiritual myths/beliefs - however, it certainly isn't an idea based in neuroscience, physiology, physics, or anything else empirically-evidenced. I have no problem with anything anyone wants to believe, as long as they recognize whether it is actually scientific/rational, or nothing more than unevidenced conjecture and fiction.

 

[nazz]

I'm just gonna say this and leave it at that. People who claim science has disproven the existence of God, the soul, the afterlife, or whatever, are spouting nonsense. Anyone who makes such asinine claims as those has no business even talking about science because they don't even understand how science works.

 

[1137]

I'm just gonna say this and leave it at that. People who claim science has disproven the existence of God, the soul, the afterlife, or whatever, are spouting nonsense. Anyone who makes such asinine claims as those has no business even talking about science because they don't even understand how science works.

Luckily nobody here made any of those claims. Darn fallacies. Maybe you should stop talking about things you don't understand, because YOU don't seem to understand science.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm just gonna say this and leave it at that. People who claim science has disproven the existence of God, the soul, the afterlife, or whatever, are spouting nonsense. Anyone who makes such asinine claims as those has no business even talking about science because they don't even understand how science works.

I suppose you can also say that people who are deaf have no business talking about the timbre and tone of different musical instruments. However, this would be as equally unrelated to this thread, or to anything anyone has claimed in it. Of course, I do realize that the importance of relevance varies greatly among individuals.

 

[idav]

Luckily nobody here made any of those claims.

Yeah I didn't see any of that either.

 

[shawn001]

I guess you just ignore those scientists who disagree with you? Confirmation bias much?

You have ignored 10 years of modern neuroscience. That ONE particular neuroscience is considered one of the best in the world. I am, however posting more then one and actual neuroscientists not a wiki article, you don't even understand fully. I have no confirmation bias, like you do that is for sure, I am following where the evidence takes modern neuroscience, not adding a supernatural cause to explain things. That is NOT science or how it works in the slightest way.

The fact you said you can't observe consciousness, is because consciousness arises from the ENTIRE brain. Not a central spot. You have also ignore consciousness has evolved.

"Vilayanur Ramachandran has been called a Sherlock Holmes of neuroscience. Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and adjunct professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, Ramachandran has brilliantly sleuthed his way through some of the strangest maladies of the human mind."

NOVA | From Ramachandran's Notebook

He has also been called the Marco Polo and Broca of neuroscience.


Rama - Take the Neuron Express for a brief tour of consciousness



[youtube]ojpyvpFLN6M[/youtube]
Rama - Take the Neuron Express for a brief tour of consciousness - YouTube





The neurons that shaped civilization - VS Ramachandran





[youtube]l80zgw07W4Y[/youtube]
The neurons that shaped civilization - VS Ramachandran - YouTube


How about his patients with


Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist

[youtube]PFJPtVRlI64[/youtube]
Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist - YouTube







Tell me Nazz, how does consciousness get DAMAGED?

and

How has consciousness has evolved?

 

[nazz]

Actually Shawn I see no further point in even talking to you. Sorry

 

[1137]

Actually Shawn I see no further point in even talking to you. Sorry

Stop prancing about. Either support your belief with evidence, discredit the tons of evidence being spoon fed to you, or go away. I'm beginning to realize you're trolling.

 

[outhouse]

I'm just gonna say this and leave it at that.

I highly doubt it.

People who claim science has disproven the existence of God, the soul, the afterlife, or whatever, are spouting nonsense. Anyone who makes such asinine claims as those has no business even talking about science because they don't even understand how science works.

Oh I think your in serious error here.


Science does not have to prove something does not exist, that never has existed.


There must first be a credible claim that something exist, before science can test for it.


To date, gods and souls do not exist scientifically and are not know to exist outside mythology.

It is on you to prove your point, not science.

 

[Warren Clark]

This doesn't mean that they did have an out of body experience.