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By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

Perhaps you should find a woman that can take care of herself but *still* wants to be with you
Oh I have and as a Christian who values women I also believe this about them, how wise and capable they are:

”An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. She is like the ships of the merchant; she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and portions for her maidens. She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong. She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night. She puts her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle. She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of snow for her household, for all her household are clothed in scarlet. She makes bed coverings for herself; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known in the gates when he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchant. Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. She looks well to the ways of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: “Many women have done excellently, but you surpass them all.” Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates.“
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭31‬:‭10‬-‭31‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This kind of love is not natural because most people are selfish and put themselves first above other people so that’s why this is supernatural love or agape love that God showed in Jesus Christ for us as is posted above.
I disagree. This sort of love is special, but it is completely’ natural’. Perhaps you are seeing your own selfishness and thinking it applies to everyone?

No deities required.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh I have and as a Christian who values women I also believe this about them, how wise and capable they are:

”An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. She is like the ships of the merchant; she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and portions for her maidens. She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong. She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night. She puts her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle. She opens her hand to the poor and reaches out her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of snow for her household, for all her household are clothed in scarlet. She makes bed coverings for herself; her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known in the gates when he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchant. Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. She looks well to the ways of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: “Many women have done excellently, but you surpass them all.” Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates.“
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭31‬:‭10‬-‭31‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Hmmm… notice that this sees the value of a woman solely in terms of what she can do for a man.

That is denigrating.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This kind of love is not natural because most people are selfish and put themselves first above other people so that’s why this is supernatural love or agape love that God showed in Jesus Christ for us as is posted above.
What? No. Where did you get that from? In fact from you and other Christians like you I see what they call "love" far too often being self love. Treating one's wife as one's property is an Abrahamic trait. As you show in your next post you value your wife by what she can do for you and not what you can do for her.

Real love is when the happiness of your partner is more important than your own and that is not to be found in the Bible.
 
What? No. Where did you get that from? In fact from you and other Christians like you I see what they call "love" far too often being self love. Treating one's wife as one's property is an Abrahamic trait. As you show in your next post you value your wife by what she can do for you and not what you can do for her.

Real love is when the happiness of your partner is more important than your own and that is not to be found in the Bible.
Well, just shows you have a false view of the Bible on this subject:
”Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬
 
I disagree. This sort of love is special, but it is completely’ natural’. Perhaps you are seeing your own selfishness and thinking it applies to everyone?

No deities required.
It does apply to all human beings and you”ll see, especially if you view pornography or agree with those who do. How is this unselfish? It’s “self” gratification and treating women as objects to fulfill a persons lust, this is t love.
 
Hmmm… notice that this sees the value of a woman solely in terms of what she can do for a man.

That is denigrating.
Seems your eye is faulty, she takes care of her family. Her husband also is influential in the community, she is fulfilled and has the resources to buy property as she sees fit.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When I sang in church I was astounded at the choir members and instrument players that were homosexual and fornicators. At the time I didn't believe in the Bible but I took note of it.

I don't base my opinions on hate. Jesus said "Judge ye not...", which is good enough for me but not you.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, just shows you have a false view of the Bible on this subject:
”Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬

And you don't see this as denigrating to women? Submit to their husbands?? Why should either 'submit' to either?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems your eye is faulty, she takes care of her family. Her husband also is influential in the community, she is fulfilled and has the resources to buy property as she sees fit.

Why can't a woman be influential in society? Why can't the man take care of things at home? For that matter, why can't both do both?

This assumes a woman should be fulfilled by staying at home and submitting to her husband.

THAT is denigrating to women.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It does apply to all human beings and you”ll see, especially if you view pornography or agree with those who do. How is this unselfish? It’s “self” gratification and treating women as objects to fulfill a persons lust, this is t love.

Nobody claimed pornography is love. Nobody claimed that sex and love are the same. I assume you have never heard of mutual masturbation?

Looking at pornography is no more 'selfish' than enjoying any other art form.
 
Why can't a woman be influential in society? Why can't the man take care of things at home? For that matter, why can't both do both?

This assumes a woman should be fulfilled by staying at home and submitting to her husband.

THAT is denigrating to women.
You’re saying all this out of your own prejudices
 
And you don't see this as denigrating to women? Submit to their husbands?? Why should either 'submit' to either?
Because submitting to one another is honoring each other and considering the other more important than yourself and mutual. Seems you are prejudiced and don’t like it because it comes from the Bible.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Well, just shows you have a false view of the Bible on this subject:
”Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.“
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭22‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬
This was in response to, "What? No. Where did you get that from? In fact from you and other Christians like you I see what they call "love" far too often being self love. Treating one's wife as one's property is an Abrahamic trait. As you show in your next post you value your wife by what she can do for you and not what you can do for her."

Do you not realize that you've just reinforced this point by posting what you did??
 
This was in response to, "What? No. Where did you get that from? In fact from you and other Christians like you I see what they call "love" far too often being self love. Treating one's wife as one's property is an Abrahamic trait. As you show in your next post you value your wife by what she can do for you and not what you can do for her."

Do you not realize that you've just reinforced this point by posting what you did??
If you get married or are married what were your vows for? What’s the purpose? It means you belong to each other and that relationship is sacred not to be shared with anyone else and so what do you do with that, you pervert it, and reduce
It to property.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
If you get married or are married what were your vows for? What’s the purpose? It means you belong to each other and that relationship is sacred not to be shared with anyone else and so what do you do with that, you pervert it, and reduce
It to property.
It's the that Bible reduces the woman to a piece of property. As per your quoted verses. That's the issue we have here.
 
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